Wednesday, May 03, 2006

EU punishes Serbia over fugitive war crimes suspects

BRUSSELS, May 3, 2006 (AFP) -

The European Union suspended talks Wednesday on forging closer ties with Serbia, punishing Belgrade for failing to cooperate fully with UN prosecutors hunting Ratko Mladic and other war crimes fugitives.

Enlargement Commissioner Olli Rehn postponed the talks on a stabilisation and association agreement -- seen as a first step to joining the EU -- mainly because Mladic, the former Bosnian Serb army chief wanted for genocide, was still at large.

Chief UN war crimes prosecutor Carla Del Ponte lashed Belgrade and accused Serbian Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica of delivering an "unacceptable" and "double-faced" call Wednesday for Mladic to give himself up.

She said she was "particularly disappointed" by the failure to catch Mladic despite Serbian assurances he would be in custody in the International Criminal Tribunal for former Yugoslavia (ICTY) in The Hague by April 30.

The commission's announcement sparked the resignation of Serbia's deputy prime minister, Miroljub Labus, who was a key negotiator with the EU.

"This (failure) has betrayed one of the most important interests of the country and the people of Serbia," he said. "As the deputy prime minister and chief of the negotiating team, I don't want to take part in this government."

The next round of the EU's negotiations with Serbia and its federal partner Montenegro had been scheduled for May 11 and Rehn gave no indication when the process so coveted by Kostunica's government might resume.

"It is disappointing that Belgrade has been unable to locate, arrest and transfer Ratko Mladic to The Hague," Rehn told reporters.

"The commission has therefore decided to call off the negotiations on the stabilisation and association agreement. The commission is ready to resume negotiations as soon as Serbia achieves full cooperation," he said.

He said he made the decision after telephone talks with Del Ponte earlier Wednesday. "Her assessment is negative," he said.

Mladic and Bosnian Serb wartime political leader Radovan Karadzic are wanted for genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity and have been at large since 1995.

The genocide charges relate to their roles in Bosnia's brutal 1992-1995 war, notably the Srebrenica massacre of an estimated 8,000 Muslim men and boys.

Serbia denies knowing where Mladic is, but recently admitted he had been under military protection until mid-2002 and received a pension until December.

In Belgrade, Kostunica urged Mladic to give up for the sake of his country.

"It would be best of all for Ratko Mladic to follow the example of all other officers and go to The Hague," he said in a statement.

"It has never happened in our history that the people and the state have paid the price for the mistakes of just one officer," he said.

But Del Ponte sharply criticised Serbian authorities for appealing to Mladic to surrender, a tactic she said was "completely unrealistic and simply wrong".

"The obvious conclusion is that I was misled when I was told at the end of March that the arrest of Mladic would be a matter of days or weeks," she said at a press conference.

The prospect of joining Europe's rich club has been a powerful incentive for reform in the troubled Balkans. Macedonia was made a candidate to join the Union last year based on its rapid progress.

"The stabilisation and association agreement would bring important benefits for citizens, for example in expanding trade and attracting investment," said Rehn.

"Our initial goal of concluding the negotiations by the end of 2006 is still within reach, but only if there is a dramatic improvement in cooperation with the ICTY so that the negotiations can resume without delay," he said.

The EU move heaps pressure on Belgrade as it negotiates the future of the separatist-minded province of Kosovo and as Montenegrins prepare to vote on May 21 whether to break up the federation.

89 comments:

Anonymous said...

This is peak of Serb stupidity. Speaking about the organized crime, it is obvious who controlls Serbia today. A number of criminals with their armies decide to starve the whole nation so they can escape justice. The decision to punish Serbia should have come earlier and be harsher. Only a revolution will fix things in Serbia and that will happen soon in my opinion.

Anonymous said...

I think the whole country is admitting guilt by not turning in Mladic and 100s others to face justice and let the truth come up. The fact that the all nation is being punished I think will inject some wisdom to these poor creatures in the middle of Europe.

rodoyf said...

How can you punish the whole country? it's not pragmatic, it's counter productive, more they "punish" the country, people become more resilient. US didn't blame whole german nation and it's people for the War World II. And besides the tribunal is kangaroo court.

NYoutlawyer said...

EU is a bully. It was so much better before this "Union" crap. I liked individual sovereign countries better. Europe has become like a big Walmart of nations.

Ahmet N Murati said...

I was expecting this based on fact that you Serbian you treat the war criminals like heroes.

Another issue that Serbians have failed to achieve their demmands was not participating on last elections even that they knew that during 2006 the talks for final status will start and end but without them as political party on the parliament.

NYoutlawyer said...

Murati, please learn English if you want to blog here. No one knows what the fuck you are talking about.

I think you hate albanians, right?

redemption department said...

The real tragedy here is how horribly counter-productive the ICTY has been. It was intended to rebuild rule of law, and foster a sense of recognition and reconciliation in Serbia, but instead, the ICTY and its demands for war criminals have played perfectly into the nationalist rhetoric. Rather than engender any sort of acknowledgement in Serbia, the Serbian view of the ICTY as the West's favorite whipping belt. Yet these changes desparately need to take place in Serbia in order for its society to fully break from the past, and reject the nationalist myth that nothing is ever Serbia's fault, but rather that Serbia is the perpetual victim of unfiar international scorn.

NYoutlawyer said...

Read the following and then tell me about your puppet leader and what is truely happening in Kosovo:

Ex-Security Chief Blows Whistle on UN's Kosovo Mission
By Sherrie Gossett
CNSNews.com Staff Writer

(CNSNews.com) - Following five years of United Nations control and billions of dollars of international aid, Kosovo is a lawless region "owned" by the Albanian mafia, characterized by continuing ethnic cleansing and subject to increasing infiltration by al Qaeda-linked Muslim jihadists, according to a whistleblower interviewed by Cybercast News Service.

The U.N.'s repeated failure to act on received intelligence has allowed illegal paramilitary groups to flourish and engage in terrorist attacks aimed at destabilizing regional governments in the Balkans, said Thomas Gambill, a former security chief with the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), self-described as the world's largest regional security agency.

Gambill was responsible for overseeing the eastern region of Gjilane in Kosovo from 1999 until 2004 under the authority of the U.N. His criticism comes as the United Nations prepares to launch final status talks on the troubled province of Kosovo, which has been a U.N. protectorate since North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) forces bombed Yugoslavia between March and May of 1999 to compel the Serb-dominated government of Slobodan Milosovic to withdraw its forces from Kosovo.

The U.S. mission in Kosovo alone cost $5.2 billion between June 1999 and the end of 2001, according to a report from the U.S. Government Accountability Office.

NATO bombing leads to Muslim retaliation

The NATO bombings were also launched in response to reports of large-scale ethnic cleansing of Kosovar Albanians by the Serbs. But as soon as the bombing campaign ended, ferocious, retaliatory ethnic cleansing allegedly took place with Albanians, who are predominantly Muslim, targeting Christian Serbs. The violence was witnessed and documented by the U.N. and OSCE.

Gambill shared hundreds of pages of U.N. and OSCE documents with Cybercast News Service, showing how the Serbs and other minorities were systematically and successfully targeted for removal from Kosovo.

Following the NATO bombing of Kosovo, American troops under NATO command were stationed in neighboring Macedonia and Albania while then-President Bill Clinton decided on the size of the U.S. contingent to be deployed in Kosovo. When U.S. troops entered the province in June 1999, the alleged retaliatory ethnic cleansing was already underway.

Incidents of sexual violence, torture, arson, murder, kidnapping, and verbal threats were allegedly widespread as part of an organized and successful campaign conducted "right under the U.N.'s nose," said Gambill.

Minorities targeted by ethnic Albanian extremists for expulsion or death included Serbs, Roma, Muslim Slavs, Turks and Croats.

Reports filed by the OSCE indicate that the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), which had been trained and supported by the Clinton administration, was predominantly responsible for the ethnic cleansing. In April 1999, congressional Republicans also promoted legislation seeking U.S. military aid for the KLA, causing Michael Radu of the Foreign Policy Institute to warn of the consequences of such a move.

Other armed extremist groups also participated in the ethnic cleansing, said Gambill.

The overall goal of the groups was the creation of an ethnically pure state that included Albania, Kosovo and parts of Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia "They will push for more. That is the plan. It's called Greater Albania," said Gambill.

OSCE documents reveal that elderly Serbs who were unable to flee were threatened and women were thrown down staircases. Others were tortured, beaten and murdered. Some elderly Serbs fled to monasteries for protection, but the monasteries were later attacked as well, including as recently as March of 2004, according to the OSCE documents

Entire villages emptied in the wake of large-scale arson and looting. OSCE documents describe "massive population movements" by displaced minorities after so many of their homes were set on fire, that one region of Kosovo resembled "a war zone."

An OSCE report notes that in one particular month of 1999 ethnic-related crimes dipped, but the report adds that it is unclear if that was due to the success of NATO's KFOR (Kosovo Force) or simply because there were relatively few Serbs left.

After six months of NATO presence, the violence aimed at the Serbs became less frequent, though grenade attacks, drive-by shootings and abductions continued as weekly occurrences for the next five years, according to Gambill. "Even as of a couple of weeks ago, it hasn't stopped," he added.

The perpetrators of ethnic violence were emboldened by a lack of functioning local police or a judiciary system, Gambill said. Even now, the "good cops" are threatened by former KLA members, who are also on the police forces. "One female cop, she was a real Serpico," recalls Gambill. "She wouldn't give up an investigation after being threatened. She was killed soon after being warned."

Minorities are still being denied health care by Albanian medical professionals who quickly dominated the health care profession following the NATO bombing, Gambill said. He recounted an incident in which a Serb doctor was taken behind a building and shot in the back of the head. "Sometimes they had to take wounded Kosovar Serbs all the way to Serbia for medical aid," said Gambill.

'Don't Rock the Boat'

Gambill told Cybercast News Service that he was most frustrated by what he saw as apathy on the part of the U.N. Mission in Kosovo and OSCE, despite what he described as lower-level officials who "worked really hard and cared about the mission.

"There was a don't-rock-the-boat atmosphere," Gambill explained. "Many people deployed to the region simply wanted to make their hefty pay and have a good time vacationing in Greece. They didn't want any 'problems' on their watch."

Aggressive patrols were discouraged, Gambill said, for fear that any ensuing firefights would give the appearance that KFOR forces did not have control of the area.

"It was all P.C. (politically correct). People were afraid to say anything," said Gambill, adding that those who spoke out on serious issues were subjected to transfers or other reprisals. "No one seems to want to listen or make waves. They said 'I can't do anything to change the system, so why speak out?'"

The result of such an attitude, Gambill said, is that "every time there is an attack against a Serb, it's always described as an 'isolated case' -- an event swept under the rug, so to speak."

Gambill said his warnings and reports on grave security threats were often met with a condescending attitude and even laughter. During a briefing given at the end of 2000 to OSCE delegates from Vienna, Austria, Gambill identified illegal paramilitary groups operating in the Balkans in violation of U.N. Security Council resolution 1244.

Albanian mafia flourishes

At the same briefing, Gambill said he tried to explain the regional mafia structure, however, U.S. and Russian delegates in the audience complained about the content of Gambill's speech. As a result, he said, OSCE headquarters in Pristina sent a message to Gambill's regional superiors with the message, "Shut Tom up."
"You couldn't get up in front of meetings and say, 'We've lost control of [Kosovo], the mafia controls it,'" said Gambill. "But they do. They run the damn place."

Gambill cited OSCE data that showed 42 mafia leaders had moved into Kosovo in the wake of the NATO bombing in order to set up criminal organizations. They continued to thrive despite efforts to establish mature law enforcement operations in the province, he said.

"Drug smuggling, counterfeiting, weapons, human trafficking were all booming when I was there," said Gambill. He also alleged that high-level mafia leaders are in senior political positions.

"Good cops," who want to target the corruption are "under threat," said Gambill, adding that the Albanian mafia maintains ties with Russian, Serbian, Croatian and Italian mafia organizations to further their common agendas.

Gambill also warned his U.N. superiors that the newly formed paramilitary group, the Albanian National Army, was "highly dangerous and skilled" and operating in Kosovo as well as northwestern Macedonia. But those warnings, he said, were also met with disbelief.

Within months, the Albanian National Army was taking credit for terrorist attacks, prompting the U.N. to acknowledge the group's existence.

Now Kosovo has entered what Gambill calls "The Fifth Phase," characterized by attacks against the United Nations Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK) itself. A September warning from UNMIK to staff members warns, "Before you turn on your vehicle, inspect it all around, to see if anything is unusual or suspicious." The warning followed the blowing up of an UNMIK vehicle.

"UNMIK Out!" reads the graffiti seen on many buildings in Kosovo.

A field officer currently working with the U.N. Mission in the Kosovo area spoke with Cybercast News Service on condition of anonymity. After noting that the explosives used by al Qaeda terrorists in the March 2004 Madrid bombing attacks had come from the Balkans, he stated: "I sit here watching special patrol groups surveying and doing nothing. How many more people will die; whilst terrorists rest and recuperate here in the not so moderate Muslim regions of the Balkans theatre?"

"The cat and mouse game is coming to an end," the field officer noted. "Kosovo is saturated with extremists so NATO [may] pull out before it all blows up in their faces. War on Terror! [It's] more like support [of] terror!"

"My biggest concern has always been the incursion of radical Islam into the area," said Gambill. "They're making preparations in Macedonia for terrorist attacks against internationals if Kosovo is not granted independence."

If the United Nations recommends against independence, Gambill said, it will spur the Saudis to increase their involvement in the region. "They've got the money, they've got the power. They'll remind Kosovars that they are their true friends. And they'll help the extremists fight and prepare terrorist attacks against internationals and even NATO troops stationed there," Gambill told Cybercast News Service.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=\SpecialReports\archive\20050 9\SPE20050927a.html

Ahmet N Murati said...

At 1:01 AM, NYoutlawyer said...

Murati, please learn English if you want to blog here. No one knows what the fuck you are talking about.

I think you hate albanians, right?

Sir if you want to learn other languages than English pleas learn Mandarin because it will be the language of business.

As it matters for English language I have already passed the TOEFL once with 603 points.

As it matters with hatting Albanians how come that you can say something like that and didn't you noticed that I am Albanian from my previous blogs.

Ako hoces da se sporazumes sa albanicima nemoj vise da nas zove shitpairs jer vi ste takvi a mi se zovemo Shqiptar a ne shiptari ili kako je nas zvao Vojslav Seselj shiftari. Kad biste poceli da hodate po zemjli takodjer da mislite normalno onda ne bih mogli da radite svasta u Balkanu jer skoro se doci vrijeme da Shqiptarët da dodju do Sumadije jer to su bile nase territorije.

And about Great Albania that you Serbians quite often use I think that you Serbians are willing to create it. But do you know its border how would look like to have Great Albania. If the surface of Great Albania is almost 75% of Balkan Peninsula then it is really Great Albania. Starting from Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Serbia, FYRO Macedonia, and a northern part of Greece from Selanik (Thessalonikis) straight line on the map til the Çamëria (Lower than Janina).
So shut up your language because we want only those territories that belong to us not further then that.

By the way my wish has been fulfilled no Serbian parties on the Parliament of Kosova, the talks about Joining Serbia to EU have been halted so what's next on the menu, Kosova, Montengro, Sandzak, Vojvodina with Djerdap (no more electricity for Serbia) and no more bordering with FYRO Macedonia and who nows at the year of 2008 only the Sumadija and Belgrade Pasaluk will remain as the territories of Serbia.

This song has been started by us and will be ended by us.

Ahmet N Murati said...

Another issue is if we were not converted to Islam then now we could be all assimilated to serbians. So I am proud to be Albanian non-fundamentalist Muslim with clear conoscience and without any hassle to talk with other nations but your policy pushes us to those positions to start a war against Serbia.

Cvijus011 said...

Murati,

Ny was right, but I don't think that it is your english skills your problem, but your logics and here's the proof.
Look at this contradiction you make:

" jer skoro se doci vrijeme da Shqiptarët da dodju do Sumadije jer to su bile nase territorije."

English: "cause the time will come for the shqiptars to come to Sumadija (central Serbia) because they were also our territories"

and afterwards you say:

"And about Great Albania that you Serbians quite often use I think that you Serbians are willing to create it" - I suppose you mean that the idea of greater Albania is just Serbia paranoia

but then you repeat again:

"Starting from Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Serbia, FYRO Macedonia, and a northern part of Greece from Selanik (Thessalonikis) straight line on the map til the Çamëria (Lower than Janina).
So shut up your language because we want only those territories that belong to us not further then that." - well here it is an extra greater Albania

Here's an interview with one of the greatest Albanian personalities, I think you will find it interesting:

http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/macedonia/kaplan_english.html

So make up your mind what is the idea, you want the territories that is clear, but categorizing these claims (giving them a name) that's Serbian propaganda?

"Another issue is if we were not converted to Islam then now we could be all assimilated to serbians."

Religion is an issue connected to the individual feelings, so did Christ teach, and not with politics, as Christ said "give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's (taxes) and to God what is God's (prayer)". So here it is obvious that for you religion is just a political issue, portraying your hate to Serbs and Greeks.

To the related article,

Mladic is assisted by some paramilitary structures that are mighty enough and most probably threating the government and I don't think that Kostunica and Labus wanted to live the same destiny as Djindjic did for sending Milosevic to the Hague. Thus, Mladic and his assistants are holdeng the whole nation as a hostage.

NYoutlawyer,

1. This article from CNS is great.

2. Keep it on with the poems dude, they really make me laugh. It is amasing how in a few words you describe the reality :)

Samo tako care

Anonymous said...

O Ahmet N Murati,

Ore mëndjeshkretë! A islami na ka mbajtur Shqiptar a?...U i poshtëri i botës!...islami nuk ka fare të bëj me Shqiptarizmin ore idiot.

Përkundrazi, islami na ka kajt nonën si komb dhe ende po na kan' nonën sot.

Un vije nga një familje "muslimane" (bile edhe gjyshin e kemi pasur haxhi) por jam mjaftë i vetëdijshëm, mjaftë i guximshëm dhe & mjaftë i edukuar sa i përket historisë së kombit tonë të lavdishëm që të dijë se çfarë dëmi na kanë bërë turqit & arabët (prej të cilëve ka ardhur kjo fe e praptë me kulturë që nuk ka të bëj fare me Shqiptaët dhe Evropianizmin) duke na e sjellur këtë fe dhe kulturë në mesin tonë.

Gjuha, gjaku dhe armiqtë tanë na kanë mbajtur SHQIPTAR e jo fetë (çfarëdo qofshin).

Ju që e propangandoni tezën se kinse islami na ka shpëtuar nga asimilimi veqse s'lypni vra!

Mjaftë më ore të poshtë4r!

Me Respekt
Shqiptar bir Shqiptari.

Ahmet N Murati said...

More ti anonim prej nga je ti që po filozofon kështu shko shiko pak më shumë e hulumto për këto shkaqe e pastaj e di se çka është e vërtetë
se unë edhe gjyshim por edhe stërgjyshin e kam pasur me fakultet more ti edhe që të dy kanë qenë Hoxhollarë

Edhe nëse je burrë shkruaje emrin e mos u bë burrec pa emër.

Edhe hapi sytë pak më shumë për historinë e shqiptarëve se po më dukesh që ke mbetur mbrapa.

Ahmet N Murati said...

Edhe kjo Europë e kam pasur një mesjetë shumë të praptë që gjatë asaj kohe askush nuk ka guxuar të flas kundër kishës ndërsa në fenë islame nuk ka aso gjëra.

Edhe një gjë se prej Kryqëzatave kush ka pësuar më së shumti?

Hulutmo pak më shumë edhe e sheh historinë e mirëfillt
e mos u bazo vetëm në një burim të vetëm se shyqyr ka dal interneti e ka mjaft burime.

Edhe mos shkruani komente pa emra se shumë po shiteni si filozofa a emrin nuk po guxoni ta shkruani.
Edhe mos i shaj ashtu se edhe di të shaj por njerëzit si ti as që ia vlen të harxhosh energji në të shara.

Ahmet N Murati said...

Cvijus011 All what we want is whole territory of Kosova nothing less and nothing more to any country either Serbia or FYRO Macedonia. And this is not Great Albania But only Kosova.

This comment I have said also to a student from Bosnia in 2003 he said to me "Why you (Albanians) are requesting Great Albania?"

I answered to him:
"If we want Great Albania you should be leaving Balkan peninsula. All what we want is Kosova to be an independent country so it could not be reigned from Serbia any longer."

redemption department said...

how absolutely fitting and distressful that this minimalistic advertisement-less kosovo blog would become the virtual battleground for anonymous albanians and serbs to come settle their scores in such a sophomoric and broken-english kind of way.

Anonymous said...

O Ahmet N Murati,

Do të vijë dita shumë shpejtë, e do të na njohish shumë mirë neve Shqiptarët e pastër. Tani për tani nuk keni nevoj të na njihëni. Ju dhe tipat si ju janë duke e ngadalësuar për të mos thënë ndaluar kombin tonë që të riintegrohët përsëri në/kah perendimi.

Tipat si ju për mendimin tim dhe të shokëve të mij të idealit nuk kanë vend në ardhmërinë e kombit Shqiptar por vetëm në Turqi apo në Arabi (ku i keni rrënjet).

Poashtu, "shkolla" e juaj dhe "dipllomat" tuaja nuk vlejnë as për t'i përdorur në nevojtore (hale- në gjuhën tuaj, që ta kuptoni më mirë)!

Pra, poshtë turkomanët anadollak që tentojnë ta dirigjojnë kombin Shqiptar kah lindja duke ia mohuar historinë e lashtë & unik si dhe ardhmërinë e saj të pastër, të fortë e të sigurt, drejt kah perendimi.

Vafshi në ferr o milet anadollak.

Shqiptar bir Shqiptari

Anonymous said...

anonymus, ti si po mundohesh të tregosh se kush është shqiptar. Ju që mendoni se jeni kthyer nga perendimi( në të vërtet jeni kthyer nga kriminaliteti) e kënqët Shqipërin në faqet e zeza të gazetave Europiane.

Anonymous said...

...ah turk a turk!

...ah "rroja ju hupt'!"

ore i krimbur, ore i mykur, ore i sëmuar, ore tradhëtar i gjakut!

Shqiptar bir Shqiptari!

Anonymous said...

For some reason I feel that a couple of you have misunderstood the objective of this blogspot with your postings.

NYoutlawyer why do u always have to come up with other articles when commenting? I am sure that it is hard for your to open your eyes to reality and have to spend the whole day trying to find some article somewhere to prove your failed points.

Try and read the Newsweek, a magazine that U,S, sentars and other important decision makers read and see what they have to say about how Kosova is progressing (or regressing in your mind).

Serbia and its people should be punished until they understand the concept of justice and the natural rights of humans, such as the right to life, liberty and property. Whoever tries to protect violators of these rights should be punished up to the point when they change their minds and realize that it is not worth it.

Germans were initially punished for what they did in WW I and after WW II they admitted guilt and felt embarrased for what they had done. Serbia has a long way to go to realize that the world is not stupid and no matter how long they refuse to admitt all the responsibility for the wars in the Balkans they are staying right where they are along with Iran and North Korea.

Anonymous said...

Ok people stop feeding the fucking troll calling himself nyouthouselawyer. Dont you see the whole reason for his miserable existence is coming on this site and cuting and pasting crap. Nyouthouse lawyer i have one thing to say to you- a life unexamined is not worth living- so do humanity a favour and remove your genes from the worlds gene pool.

Konaction said...

Iran!!!! Those f&*&ing muslim terrorists! :P

Hey serbs, LOL!

Anonymous said...

...ata që "e kënaqën Shqipërinë në faqet e zeza të gazetave Evropiane" janë mu ata që po t'i pyesish se çfarë jan me fe, do ta quajnë vetën mysliman. Këta të fëlliqur e mbajnë edhe ramazanin, e që shkojnë në xhamija kohë pas kohe pë arsye të ndryshme, etj, etj gjatë tërë vitit gjërsa janë duke i kryer të gjitha ato të zeza për të cilat e ke fjalën Ahmet N Murat.

E gjithë bota perendimore e dinë fare mirë që shumica e drogës vjen tek ta nga shtetet myslimane (Afganistani, Arabia, Turqia, etj).

Droga, kontrabanda, prostitucioni, etj, etj po punohen e zhvillohen me zell në shumë e shumë shtete myslimane. Këtë e dijë sepse kam jetuar/punuar në shtete arabe dhe e dij fare mirë se çfarë janë myslimanet (Arabet & Turqit). Mund t'ju them se ma kanë gërdit fenë dhe kulturën islame pa masë!


Shkumbini

Konaction said...

Shkumbin,

Lej foret! :)

Anonymous said...

OK Konaction...por më qiti prej taktit ky far Ahmet N Murat.

Anonymous said...

interesting!

Maybe you can help me understand:

1) what does gen. Mladic have to do with Serbia´s eventual membership in the EU?

2) since when is fighting for one´s own country a crime?

3) as we assume that general is not in Serbia, how do you expect them to arrest him?

4) are you saying that general should be sent to kangaroo court where already 6 serbian prisoners died under questionable citcumstances?

5) who is going to pay for war damage caused by NATO agression in 1999? We are talking 100 billion US$ here......

Anonymous said...

The person or thing tat wrote this last one with all the fucked up questions MUST be on something.

Anonymous said...

"who is going to pay for the war damages in serbia???"

What a laugh!!!

When Serbia pays the 100's of millions of Euros or the kazillions of millions and babillions of dinars to Kosova's Albanians in reperations for the hundreds of years of murder, plunder and destruction (not to mention the last war, where you dirty fuckers killed thousands of innocent and burnt and destroyed thousands of homes, etc and stole thousands of cars, trucks and tractors, etc, etc).

YOU fucken dirty fuckers...how dare you ask for reperations after wht you did.

Screw you all
From: Albanian son of an Albanian

Cvijus011 said...

Sex, drugs and guns in the Balkans
Ethnic Albanian rebels benefit from sex slavery

By David Binder and Preston Mendenhall
MSNBC

TIRANA, Albania - Organized crime syndicates in the Balkans, spawned when communism collapsed a decade ago, are thriving on illegal trade in drugs and sex slaves. The final destination for much of the goods and services is Western Europe. The trade, which yields billions of dollars each year, doesn’t just pay for the mansions and yachts of wealthy traffickers. It also has a political purpose — supporting the purchase of arms for Albanian rebels.

Nearly two years after NATO troops drove Serb forces from this region, rebels are believed to still be skimming profits from drug and sex slave trafficking to fund illegal arms purchases for ethnic Albanian rebel movements.

This trafficking has allowed both the Kosovo Liberation Army in the southern Serbian province of Kosovo and the National Liberation Army in Macedonia to be outfitted with the latest in rocket-propelled grenades, machine guns, mortars, sniper rifles and night-vision goggles.

A look at European police blotters provides evidence of the close links between the rebels and Balkans trafficking. Two recent examples:

In 1999, a court in Brindisi, Italy, convicted an Albanian drug trafficker who also admitted obtaining weapons for the Kosovo Liberation Army.

In the first week of March, Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty reported a reversal of the main heroin trafficking route across Albania — into neighboring Kosovo rather than from Kosovo. Later, two Albanians were caught in Kukes with 20 kilos of heroin bound for Kosovo, and then on to Serbia and northern Europe.

Ali Ahmeti, the leader of the Macedonian rebel group, conceded in an interview with MSNBC.com that some of the rebels’ funding might come from narcotics trafficking and a flourishing sex slave trade in the region.

But Ahmeti, whom the Macedonian government has arrested on drug charges in the past, maintained that the volume of donations to the rebel movement made it impossible to check their source.

“We try to vet all the money,” Ahmeti said in an interview high in his mountain headquarters in Sipkovica in northwestern Macedonia.

But even Ahmeti admitted he counts rich Balkans smugglers among his supporters. “We’re not so fanatic to say that such money could not reach us,” Ahmeti told MSNBC.com.

Guns for sex
As hard as it is to link sex slavery with illegal arms purchases, it’s arguable that the region’s sex slave trade has made crime syndicates rich. Of the nearly 1 million women trafficked as sex slaves worldwide each year, an estimated 200,000 pass through the Balkans, making their transfer through the war-torn region one of the area’s most lucrative businesses. Bosnia, Kosovo and Macedonia are filled with tiny brothels, where women, mostly from Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union, are forced to work as prostitutes under threat of death.

Ilir Gjoni, a former Albanian interior minister, and numerous other officials in the region said they are certain that Albanians who traffic in women and drugs contribute money to rebel arms purchases. But they admit there is no legal way of proving it.

Chaos breeds profits
The rise of organized crime syndicates flourished following the collapse of the communist system and frontier controls throughout most of the Balkan peninsula, resulting in lawlessness and civil conflict. The traffickers are from every ethnic group in the region, and despite the bloody rivalries that have torn apart Bosnia, Kosovo and Macedonia, they work closely together.

In many areas they work with the complicity of police and customs officials. The U.S. State Department report on human rights for 2001 notes that “instances of corruption and involvement of police in trafficking in persons occurred on the local level. At least two law enforcement officials have been dismissed for accepting bribes from traffickers.”

Often these activities enjoy the protection of high-ranking politicians, who are generously bribed, according to regional law enforcement officials.

Corrupt judges and prosecutors also frequently help arrested criminals.

On April 18, the Albanian state security service acknowledged the problem, saying in a statement that a “dangerous aspect of the growing power of the criminal groups is their ability to establish links with individuals in the top state administration offices and with politicians.”

Adding up the profits
No matter how much money the sex trade generates for traffickers, their big-ticket item continues to be drugs, police say.

The U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency estimates that 4,000 to 6,000 kilos of heroin are smuggled from Afghanistan to Western Europe every month, largely through the Balkans.

With a kilo of heroin worth between $50,000 and $200,000 on the street, the European traffic generates a market worth $7 billion a year, making it easily the biggest regional industry in the Balkans.

In February, Thomas Koeppel of the Swiss national police said, “Albanians account for 90 percent of our problems with drugs.”

Law enforcement authorities in the Balkans openly concede that ill-equipped and underpaid police and border guards can be easily persuaded with bribes to help traffickers.

And police are no match for the smugglers’ methods of evasion. For example, they throw away cell phones after one call to avoid electronic detection and transport their contraband in the latest speedboats.

Gjoni, the former Albanian interior minister, says that in contrast, rank-and-file police “need such basic things as flashlights, walkie-talkies, handcuffs. For now, we are likely to rely on tips from villagers.”

- How many women did suffer in roder to support these KLA terrorists. How many junkies needed to die from overdosis in order to finance your terrorist actions?

Cvijus011 said...

Here's a nice one from The Times

Rampage of the mafia may delay Kosovo independence
Tom Walker, Pristina


KOSOVO, the former Yugoslav province, is falling into the grip of Albanian organised crime gangs, casting a shadow over attempts by the international community to turn it into a fully fledged independent state by the end of this year.

Participants in talks in Vienna, sponsored by the United Nations, on the “final status” of Kosovo, are concerned that the mafia networks that smuggled guns into the disputed province from Albania in 1997 and 1998 are using the same channels for a burgeoning trade in illicit petrol, cigarettes and cement. Prostitution and drugs are also popular staples of the black economy.

The profits are ploughed into shopping centres and hotels, which are going up as part of a building boom in the province. Petrol stations are especially popular — there are more than 2,000 of them catering for a population of 2m in a territory the size of Devon. Many are believed to be part of a money laundering racket, controlled by a few of the largest clan families, involving oil smuggled in from Montenegro.

Despite attempts by Soren Jessen-Petersen, head of the UN mission in Kosovo, to downplay the extent of the problem, UN officials admit the corruption extends deep into the heart of the Kosovo government.

“Crime groups have been able to operate with impunity,” said Marek Antoni Nowicki, Poland’s leading human rights lawyer and the UN’s international ombudsman for Kosovo until last year.

“You have a criminal state in real power — it needs underground illegal structures to supply it with everything to survive. These networks can rely on the weakness of the public institutions to sanction their operations.”

On Friday the UN’s internal watchdog, the Office of Internal Oversight, accused Jessen-Petersen of turning a blind eye to widespread fraud at Pristina airport. He protested that the accusation was “entirely unwarranted”.

Kosovo is still technically part of Serbia: Vojislav Kostunica, the Serbian prime minister, argues that Belgrade must retain some form of control.

The fight against corruption is complicated by the fact that the task is shared between different bodies of varying degrees of competence.

“The aim is to keep the criminals under control,” said Nowicki. “The question is can the international community do it? It is very doubtful.”

Anonymous said...

1) Comitted one of the worst crimes since WWII.

2) Since Srebenica.

3) It's been proven that he is in Serbia.

4) YES that's what I'm saying.

5) You are, and also for Bosnia, Croatia and Kosova.

Anonymous said...

Serbian teritorry called Kosovo and Metohija is currently occupied by NATO.

Any teritorry taken over by force, will be returned to it´s motherland (sooner or later) by force or peaceful intergartion.

Only Serbs could give up their own land, no one else!
But I see no reason why anyone would do that freely.

If kangaroo court in the Hague was independent and impartial, they would have already had in their jails Clinton, Solana, Albanian prime minister in Kosovo and Metohija and many others.

Anonymous said...

FOR AS LONG AS SERBIANS WON'T REALIZE THAT THEY ARE LIVING ON FOREIGN LANDS THEY WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO LIVE IN PEACE OR HAVE GOOD NEIGHBORING RELATIONS WITH ALBANIANS.

DIMITRIJE TUCOVIC, SERBIAN SCHOLAR KILLED BY SERBIAN CHAUVINIST.

Cvijus011 said...

It is amazing how the shitptars plagiarize history for themselves.

Tucovic meant that for the expansion plans of Serbia to northenr Albania (Skadar/Shkoder).

Tucovic was killed in battle in 1914 as a SERBIAN OFFICER.

Anonymous said...

Say what you will. You fuckers are goin' down.

Rroftë Shqipëria
Long live Albania

Albanian so of an Albanian

Anonymous said...

“Tucovic meant that for the expansion plans of Serbia to northenr Albania (Skadar/Shkoder)”.

Cvijus,
Even what you claim is true, you are amazing me. How come, Serbia had plans to take Shkoder too?
You guys never stop claim other people’s territories do you? Are you still planing that kind of expansion? Tell me you son of a bitch. Let everybody know what is in Serbia's mind.
And for your info, Chauvinist serbs killed Tucovic after the war. Google it and you will find the info.

Cvijus011 said...

Skadar was in plan then, not now so stop being hysterical. All I'm concerned, why should we take that shithole, it's worthless for us now after Hodza killed or expelled the Serbs from that region.

Why don't you search some Serbian websites to get infos on Tucovic? He died in combat in 1914 (or maybe 1915 I'm not sure).

Anonymous said...

The whole world must know that Serbia's dream to have access to the Adriatik Sea and Mediterranean is still alive. That's why the wars started since day one.
Any one that thinks otherwise is just trying to close their eyes and hopes that when they open them the reality would be different.
Dear friends, NOthing has changed. It is the same old story. Only the actors have changed but they play the same scenario. It has always been like this. And as per that shit hole you are talking about, don't worry. We will manage our own business. You are out of our picture OUT. ONCE and for ALL.

bg anon said...

At risk of repeating what I've already said I would like to see an end to this.

Mladic should pack his bags or the Serbian government has to force this issue to a close. Yes, if that means liquidation, then Im afraid, that too.

I, will no longer be Mladic's prisoner. My patience and the patience of many Serbs living in Serbia has run too thin.

I dont know what that mans state of mind is at the moment. Does he really think that he can continue like this?

Mark my words, soon there will be a gathering of momentum in Serbia. People will protest that Mladic should hand himself over and stop holding the country to ransom.

This is not the Serbia of the 1990's. Rule of law may not be what it should be but things have moved on.

Anonymous said...

Dear bg anon,
I really liked your comments.
Hatered and differences left aside people that live in the Balkan peninsula should all look forward. Respect and love for each other.
It might take generations but more people that think like you do from all sides the better for the future of our children. I am Albanian and I am very happy to see that there are people thinking out of the box. Only this way all the Balkan nations will have a future.
I believe that there is no real freedom for us all if any of the Balkan nations lives in misery and is not respected and loved by all of us. We will be living in this area in the future as we have for such a long time. Serbs must understand that there will be no peace in the area without the albanian question solved once and for all. It doesn't matter who was here first. It doesn't matter who is brighter or smarter or stronger. On the other hand Albanians must understand that they are not the only one in the Balkans and there will be no peace for them to if there is no peace and prosperity in Serbia, Macedonia or in Albania proper.
This is the issue. This is the big question that has been hanging over our hads for centuries. The sooner we find a way to love each other the better. Otherwise there would be no winers but all losers.

We have seen too much; we have been through hell, We know that so far we haven't been able to go forward the way we have been trying to. Are we going to repeat the history over and over again?
My dear "bg anon" I have a dream that one day we will cherish our similarities not our diferences. I believe that we do have more things in common as Balkans. Think about it. We share the same mentality, like it or not. The same mentality from Romania, Bulgaria and down in Macedonia Albania and Greece. Think about it guys. We have more things in common and more to share than what we have to condem and blame each other.
Let us learn to live together as good neighbours. Each one in their own land, working together, helping each other, sharing with eachother. We have no choice this is the only opportunity.

bg anon said...

Thank you anon. Your tone and comments give me some hope and with any luck both our comments will have even just a little impact on others here.

I am not by nature some kind of traitor who hates his own kind. There are some people who are like that who are quite unhealthy - the mirror image of those who worship war criminals etc. Actually Im quite patriotic in some way.

It is possible to want to see the best for your fellow countrymen (yes countrymen, not ethnic group) and to want to see the best for your neighbours too. There is a common interest.

I might disagree with some Serbs and Albanians but as I say you have given me some hope. Thanks.

Borna said...

all the comments before the last three (not including mine) don't seem to have any relevance to the post, but rather seem to be a bunch of stones being thrown from one side to the other. Having said this, I would also like to comment on the post.

Serbia is experiencing what Croatia experienced before. We too had a runnaway general Ante Gotovina who was on the run for almost 4 years. During this time croatia was unable to begin talks with the EU for membership and this was very frustrating for me. Why should I be punished or why should the whole nation be forced to live on the sidelines of what is now an emerging world power just because one man doesn't want to take responsibility for his actions. I was still quite young during the war so I don't know with great accuracy what happened and why they want him in the ICTY, but if everyone is claiming that he is innocent, why is he running? and even though he's Croatian, if he is guilty of war crimes, I will not stand by that man. I also think that Serbia should not stand by a man who is guilty of war crimes so they have to produce him to the ICTY (to prove his innocence or guilt) and once and for all close this chapter in balkan history.

Anonymous said...

Way to go Borna,
This is what everyone should come to understand.
Let us send all wanted people to trial and if they are innocent good for them and their people, but if they are guilty then we should punish them so no more Sebrenica, Krajina or Racak in this part of the world where we are privileged to live in. It is one of teh best and most beautiful places on the face of this earth. Let us and our children enjoy it and live in peace.


all criminals of whatever nationality should pay for their crimes if guilty. Let the innocents enjoy life in a free and prosperous Balkan.

rodoyf said...

how absolutely fitting and distressful that this minimalistic advertisement-less kosovo blog would become the virtual battleground for anonymous albanians and serbs to come settle their scores in such a sophomoric and broken-english kind of way.
I second that

NYoutlawyer said...

This is the real kosovo. I don't make this stuff up. It's in the news.

ALBANIAN ORAGANISED CRIME

To understand the international heroin trade it is essential to understand Albanian organized Crime. This is because it is the Albanians who are the link between Afghan and Pakistani heroin growers [Pictured Left], Turkish producers and the world market. The Albanians are among the world's most well connected criminals. In order for them to ply their trade they deal with the Italian N'dranheta, Camorra, Stidda and Mafia, as well as the Russian Solsentskya mob, Polish organized crime (who are among Europe's main methamphetimine producers) and Nigerian, Colombian, Mexican, Serbian, British, Irish, Dutch and Kurdish criminal syndicates. In fact they work with every group around the world. Their most troubling links perhaps are with terrorist groups from Serbia to Afghanistan.

Structural links between politically connected terrorist groups and criminal gangs involved in drug trafficking (heroin), armed robbery, extortion and the illicit smuggling of humans became a major problem for the world's nations during the 1990s as state's became more reluctant to fund terrorist groups. Terrorists and organized criminals became hinged at the waist as both saw that they could make money together. In fact all terror groups need money and they gain this from organized criminal activity, thus making the members part time terrorists and full time criminals. The Albanians perhaps more so than many other groups have become dependent on their relationships with terror groups and the governments of terror connected groups. The Taliban after all was in control of most of the world's heroin supply; the Afghan Northern Alliance has now taken over this role and thus the Albanian connections.

Albanian organized crime groups are hybrid organizations. These groups are involved in both crime and politics. Unlike many organized crime groups many of the Albanian organizations do have a political ideology, which governs their actions.

In 1986 the break up of the "Pizza connection" made it possible for other ethnic crime groups to occupy the terrain of the Italian and Italian American crime families. This was especially easy for the Albanian groups because they had worked extremely closely with the Sicilian Mafia and their American counterparts since at least the early 1970`s. Due to a highly developed ethnic conscience- fortified by a Serb anti-Albanian politics in the 1980`s and 90`s Albanians, particularly Kosovars, began to develop a sense of a collective identity which precipitated their involvement in organized crime which was again, based on clan loyalties and family ties. It is this element, which brought together the clans to do business. Pan Albanian beliefs emerged and a sense of anti government was fostered amongst the groups. This is the exact condition, which facilitated the transformation of the mafia in Italy during the 19th century.

Albanian drug lords spread out throughout Europe and with them came their networks. The end of the conflict in Kosovo sparked the emergence of the Albanian crime lords as major players in the international drug trade. The United States had also inadvertently created these organizations as they allied themselves with the KLA against Slobodan Milosevic. The former freedom fighters emerged in the mid 90`s as nothing more than Europe's most powerful heroin cartel.

When the war was over a flood of humanity swept throughout the Balkans. Thousands of Kosovar Albanians returned home from refugee camps. Many of these refugees returned to find that Mercedes Benzes lined the streets of certain neighborhoods and young men with hooded eyes and bulky suits were now the main power on the streets.

The main criminal elements, which emerged, became known as the 15 families. These families had essentially been smuggling contraband for hundreds of years, however the war in Kosovo had made them extremely wealthy as they profited from the sale of weapons and the trafficking in heroin which was facilitated by corrupt officials and KLA terrorists. The entire region was essentially unpoliced. Albania was in a state of anarchy and the 15 families became the local powers. Each of these 15 families is clan based and maintains their own private armies. These armies evolved to form the KLA, which is a direct offshoot of organized crime enforcement operations. Similar to Columbia's AUC or the Los Pepes organization, which was a paramilitary wing of the Cali Cartel. The 15 families grew wealthy. They were doing $2 billion dollars a year in heroin by 2000. They grew to become so powerful that today fully 80% of Europe's heroin travels through Albania. Many European heroin addicts refer to the product as the "Albanian lady" or "Albanka."

The heroin is shipped exclusively from western Asia. The Albanians procure their product from Afghan producers. From Afghanistan the opium is shipped through Iran into Turkey. In Turkey the opium is refined into heroin and it is then sold to the Albanians for shipment into Europe. What the Mexican drug cartels are for the North American cocaine trade, the Albanian cartels are for the European heroin trade. They are the UPS of the drug underworld.

The war in Bosnia spread Albanians throughout Europe. As many criminals spread throughout Europe they came into contact with the Organized crime elements around Europe. This increased their power and profitability. Both the Mafia and the Russian Mayfia relied on the Albanians for their supply of heroin. With their newfound funds the Albanians began to purchase banks.

Albanian smugglers accumulated a massive influx of cash from the sale of weapons, drugs, people and tobacco products. They quickly discovered they needed to launder their money. With Kosovo in a state of near anarchy these groups had little trouble becoming involved in the banking system. This made them the brokers of the underworld. They could now launder the ill-gotten gains of their Russian and Italian business partners, for a price. This obviously proved to be extremely lucrative for these organizations.

[Daut Kadriovski]The most powerful boss of the 15 families was Daut Kadriovski. Kadriovski was one of Europe's most powerful drug traffickers. Kadriovski was arrested in 1985 in Germany. Authorities confiscated numerous Villas, yachts, and cars, which belonged to the kingpin. He was placed in jail and everyone believed they had heard the last of Daut, however he managed to bribe his way out of jail and in 1993 he headed for the United States. He is believed to be operating in the United States today and is believed to work through several businesses in the New York City and Philadelphia areas. He is a known associate of the local Cosa Nostra families. Kadriovski remains a fugitive and he very well may be among the most powerful heroin traffickers in North America. His organization is believed to be North America's main source of Golden Crescent (Afghanistan) heroin. Kosovar Albanian traffickers have consolidated their power and have become major suppliers of poppies to Colombian networks, which are much newer to the business. The Albanians have also forged a heroin for cocaine connection with the Columbians, which makes them one of Europe`s main sources for cocaine and allows them to procure vast sums of cash, which they then launder in their banks producing even more money. These are among the world's most innovative syndicates.

The Kosovar Albanian traffickers have become Europe's preeminent heroin traffickers as well as major cocaine traffickers. They have in house money laundering system and political connections that most criminal organizations only dream about. They are also among the underworld's most connected outfits and the majority of their bosses and operatives remain unknown to law enforcement. The 15 Kosovar Albanian families are beginning to become the most powerful criminal organizations you have never heard about.

NYoutlawyer said...

kosovo shipters are so blinded by their drive for independence, will not accept the reality of history.

Read and learn folks:

Pack journalism can be lethal

Former Australian diplomat Gregory Clark laments the powers and hazards of following what others are saying

Japan Times
Saturday, April 8, 2006

By Gregory Clark

Instead of checking facts, the media prefer to follow what others are saying. And what others are saying is often inspired by establishment hardliners seeking to impose their agendas with the help of bogus news agencies, subsidized research outfits and hired scribblers.

Beijing is a frequent victim. One example is the pack journalistic myth of a Tiananmen Square massacre of students in 1989. All one needs to do to get the true story is insert "Tiananmen" into Google and read the reports at the time from none other than the U.S. Embassy in Beijing.

You will discover that the so-called massacre was in fact a mini civil war as irate Beijing citizens sought to stop initially unarmed soldiers sent to remove students who had been demonstrating freely in the square for weeks. When the soldiers finally reached the square there was no massacre. There were in fact almost no students.

As evidence of its alleged heavy-handed approach to Taiwan we are often told how Beijing labels that territory as a "renegade province." We are never told the source of the term, because it almost certainly does not exist (I read and speak Chinese and have never come across it). What Beijing does say is that there is only one China, and that Taiwan is part of that China. But the fact that all the major powers, including the United States, have agreed to or acknowledged that claim finds little mention in the international media. Beijing is almost always portrayed as unilaterally and forcefully laying claim to the island.

The death of former Yugoslav and Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic saw pack journalism at its worst. "Butcher of Belgrade" was the favorite accusation. Few were interested in the background, which begins with the fact that during the wartime German occupation of the former Yugoslavia, up to one million resisting Serbs were butchered by the Nazis and their fascist Muslim and Croatian allies -- the Ustashi -- whose brutalities were said to have shocked even the Nazis.

The post-1945 communist regime did all it could to dampen the resulting ethnic hatreds. Even so, sporadic attacks on Serbs by Ustashi fanatics continued. Then came the premature recognition by the West of Croatia and Bosnia as independent states in 1991/92. This meant the large Serbian minorities in both regions would have to accept the rule of their former oppressors. Bitter hostilities were inevitable, with the Serbian so-called "ethnic cleansing" in many cases being part of an effort to recover the towns and villages from which they were so cruelly expelled before 1945.

True, there were also atrocities by not only the Serbs. One of the worst was the brutal expulsion of some 500,000 Serbs from the Krajina region of Croatia -- an act of genuine ethnic cleansing that attracts little attention from anti-Serb critics, as does the fact that prior to the much-mentioned expulsion of 7,000 Bosnian Muslims from the former Serbian town of Sebrenicia, with some massacred, there had been systematic massacres of Serbs in the surrounding villages.

The true "butchers" in Yugoslavia were the U.S., British and German planners who orchestrated the break-up of this once ethnically stable nation. Their aim: to weaken Serbia, seen as pro-Moscow, and to extend Western influence into a formerly neutral area of Eastern Europe. The planners must have known how past ethnic hatreds would surface. For as we see in Iraq and Dafur today, when deep-seated ethnic or religious differences within a nation are triggered, atrocities and even mass exterminations are inevitable.

Every civilian, on the other side, has to be seen as a real or potential enemy. Atrocities can only be ended by forceful separation of the rival groups. But in Bosnia, the U.S. opposed separation through till 1995, claiming remarkably that it might create a precedent for ethnic division in the U.S. The U.S., incidentally, was the first to practice Dafur-style scorched-earth policies with its free-fire-zone policies during the Vietnam conflict.

The attempts to blame Milosevic for the Kosovo conflict were even more biased. We now know that as early as the 1980s, the U.S. and Britain were encouraging and training ethnic Albanian extremists of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) to undertake guerrilla war against the Serbian presence. Somehow the legitimate Serbian military resistance to these attacks was supposed to be yet another form of "ethnic cleansing." We were supposed to believe that the Serbian 10 percent minority was determined to cleanse Kosovo of its 90 percent ethnic Albanian majority.

Ironically "ethnic cleansing" was a term originally invented by the KLA to describe its goal of driving all Serbs out of Kosovo -- a goal it has now largely achieved with the help of the West. The trigger for much of the anti-Serbian demonization was a speech Milosevic made in Kosovo in 1989. It is described repeatedly as a racist manifesto calling for a Greater Serbia state. No one seems to have bothered to read the speech. If they did they would see that in fact Milosevic was calling for racial tolerance to cope with the tense situation created originally by deep-rooted and long-standing ethnic Albanian hostility to the Serbian presence in Kosovo -- a presence that had once been strong in this former Serbian homeland but had been greatly reduced by pro-Nazi Albanian wartime rampages against Serbian villages.

Worse was to follow. Forced to move out of Kosovo or have his country bombed, Milosevic agreed to move provided the respected ethnic Albanian moderate Ibrahim Rugova was put in charge. But the U.S., in the shape of feisty Secretary of State Madeline Albright, insisted on the young, vigorous KLA leader Hashim Thaci. When Milosevic objected to what in effect would be a death or expulsion sentence for any Serbs remaining in Kosovo, NATO launched its vandalistic bombing attacks on Serbia to force compliance. The KLA under Thaci then went on expel more Serbs, Jews and other minorities from Kosovo and to launch attacks into southern Serbia and Macedonia as part of its campaign to create a Greater Albania.

Today Thaci rejects even the role of the United Nations in Kosovo. Meanwhile Serbia, which has seen much of its economy destroyed and has had to absorb close to one million refugees from Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo, still suffers demonization. Pack journalism is a powerful weapon.

Gregory Clark is a former Australian diplomat and currently vice president of Akita International University. The source material of much of the Yugoslavia data in this article can be found on emperors-clothes.com.

Cvijus011 said...

Borna & Bg Anon,

There is nothing I could tell you to question your arguments since both of you are 100% right. If Mladic is innocent, than he should go and prove. If he fought for his people, then he should'nt keep his people as hostages, just because he's afraid of some ICTY officials. For all I'm concerned, he should go to the Hague and fuck off.
BG ANON, I like your idea of protests and I would be the first one to go and protest for sending Mladic to hague as I was in the protest against Milosevic politics during his funeral. The people of Serbia should go out on the streets NOW and send this idiot to the Hague. Serbia is not what the shitptars here want to believe it is.

mitrovica pika pika said...

To everyone:
Talk is cheap. Serbia must get its war crminals and I mean all of them and not use the argument that radicals will come to power if they do. If radicals come to power they will lose just like they did a few time in the 90's. If serbs vote for radicals then they must bear the consequences. No one treated Austria with kid gloves when they elected Haider but ehy imposed sanctions on them. Same with Serbia it must choose EU or Belorussia. As far as peaceful resolution to Kosova problem, I dont think it will be what we albanians thought it will be. If Mitrovica is divided serbs will live in enclaves and Serbia will have its claws all over the economy and security which means both will suffer. The agreemnt will be hard to come by and if Ahtisari somehow manages then the man is a genius or superhuman. Its not the animosity that albanians have against serbs that keeps serbs in enclaves today but serbias manipulation of their fears. One thing is for sure Kosova will never be run by serbia again.

Anonymous said...

How depresing is to read comments made by NYoutlawyer after you read bg anon, Borna and even Cvijus. Do not get me wrong there will be people like that from all sides who know nothing but to point fingers and picture the other side in dark colors. Are there criminal serbs? Yes for sure How about Albanians? Yes for sure How about Croatians, Bosnians etc. For sure all over the world. Criminals have no country no nationality they bow only to their acts and money. However there is a huge difference between them and people who fight for freedom and prosperity and when I say "fight" doesn't necessarely mean killings. YOu can fight for someones freedom and be wellrespected and heard from the civilized democratic word. YOu can be a fighter like Gandhi or other pacifists that became legends of freedom and democracy. That's why I am depresed when I read comments made by NYoutlawyer and other people like him who preffer to only point fingers. But believe me NYoutlawyer, there are a lot more fingers pointed towards you and when I say "you" it is not neccessarely you in person, but people who think like you and mabe worse have also acted in such a way inspired by thoughts and emotions like yours. There is no peace and prosperity in the Balkans if even one of the nations is supressed blackmailed and oppresed. Stop fingerpointing and start handshaking. Believe me it is the only way. Any other way is just wrong and would be suicidial for teh Balkan aNations.
I believe there are more people that think like bg anon or Borna or even that Anonymus Albannian guy. There are a lot more people like them. Better be.

Anonymous said...

One thing is for sure Kosova will never be run by serbia again.

Serb areas will be run by Serbia and be prosperous while Albanians will continue to be poor because of the rate at which they reproduce.

Anonymous said...

"One thing is for sure Kosova will never be run by serbia again.

Serb areas will be run by Serbia and be prosperous while Albanians will continue to be poor because of the rate at which they reproduce".

Poor you. How silly of you. I really pitty you.
By the way, be careful of the extra amount of sperm that according to you Albanians are good at (the rate at which they reproduce),because your mothers and sisters will be left pregnant and then you will have a small albanian brother and sister you shit hole. Love and Peace bro.

Cvijus011 said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Cvijus, you disapointed me. I was about to change my mind and think highly of you.
Do not be a disapointment of your own race. You will be hated by your own people and the Albanians will pitty you.

Cvijus011 said...

anonymous 3:38 PM,

"Criminals have no country no nationality they bow only to their acts and money"

"Stop fingerpointing and start handshaking"

Well said

Cheers

Cvijus011 said...

" You will be hated by your own people and the Albanians will pitty you."

You wish

Anonymous said...

Cvijus,
Thank god you went and removed that comment of yours. You are still in my good books.
Keep up the good work. Let's change our opinions without insulting each other.

Anonymous said...

I mean "Let's exchange our opinions without insulting each other".
But I gues this is a very hard thing to do for Balkans. If there is no yelling and insulting there is no real conversation, is it?

Anonymous said...

What the ICTY is doing is the right thing. If serbia a.k.a Scum Manifest continues to hold such criminals then SC (scum manifest) should be punished to the full extent of the law, such as cut foreign aid. EU has become a joke negotating with terrorists (SC), you can never say you are fighting for peace if you don't crush the small ant with a big powerful foot--it's time EU did that to Scum Manifest.

Don't try to say Ratko isn't hiding in serbia, because it's a proven fact he is. Also how is he holding 8 million captive---wait are you telling me 8 million people can't find 1 person?? Or is it because serbs don't want to release him? Also why should talks continues if Mladic is captured, there are more generals who have done almost as much bad things as him...I say serbia has no right on nothing until all wanted are captured and stand before a jury OUTSIDE OF SERBIA

Anonymous said...

Easy my friend.
Argue but do not insult others.
Let's keep the level of comunication high. Do not fall in NYoutlawyer level. Look at bg anon or even cvijus, he is getting better.

gujgli said...

cvijus011,

"If Mladic is innocent, than he should go and prove."

Please, in which country you must go in court to prove that you're not guilty, i thought it's simple, you are INNOCENT UNTIL proven guilty.

gujgli said...

bg anon,

"Mark my words, soon there will be a gathering of momentum in Serbia. People will protest that Mladic should hand himself over and stop holding the country to ransom."

Oh man, obviosly you're not living in Serbia, are you? People will protest that Mladic should hand himself? That's a joke! Maybe Ceda Jovanovic will protest, he even think that in reality we must give Kosovo and Metohija to Albanians. If you think of him, he got support of like 3% people in Serbia. I'don't know who else clever would make such protests. That's ridiculous.

NYoutlawyer said...

Has everyone noticed that when the shitpars have no good rebuttle to a blog, they insult the blogger and call him/her a dirty name? Is that business as usual in shitpar land?

NYoutlawyer said...

The albanian mafia in kosovo make the Sopranos look like the Brady Bunch. Is the EU really going to give these vermin an independent state?

God help us all. Boze pomozi.

NYoutlawyer said...

del ponte's head will soon explode from sucking albanian dick. Mladic has been laying low over for 10 years, now he is the big issue. The Hague did away with Milosevic (Peace be upon Him), since he was defending himself brilliantly of false accusations, and she was losing. Carla is now after another Serbian to prosecute and waste millions in the process, for what?

What a fucking hoax!

NYoutlawyer said...

This site censors some blogs, I have noticed. it is obviously sympathetic to albanians. I had some great comments never posted. Guess the old albanian censorship is still alive and well.

NYoutlawyer said...

This may be censored:

Seems Clinton did a far better job representing "Bosnian Muslim interests", than he did representing "American interests" in this:

1. Clinton said American troops would be in Bosnia for "a year", and they have been there for eleven years and counting.

2. Tuzla, you make Bosnia sound like some sort of "happy Disneyland" now, which it is not. You are still a divided country, which could have been averted -- as could had the entire war -- had Clinton supported the Lisbon agreement, saving the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. Clinton chose to encourage the war to happen -- and then "come to the rescue" to put on a show.

3. Clinton supported the creation of a new "Muslim country" from a secular multi-ethnic country, which even you (Tuzla) admit is less than half Muslim. If I were a Serb Christian in my own country on my own land and my secular country was now suddenly to become "Muslim", I would fight too. It is only because the Serbs fought you and a compromise had to be reached that you are at today at all "multi-ethnic". Izetbegovich was a Muslim fundamentalist and so was his cause.

4. I know the differnce between "a Serbian"(from Serbia)and "a Serb" (any Serbian Orthodox Christian) so don't mix the two as interchangeable. Serbs are indigenous to Bosnia and had every right to fight for a government of their choice, just as you did. It was a bloody, nasty civil war that never needed to happen, and Clinton added fuel to that fire, he didn't put it out.

5. Milosevic was a pig, no doubt. But so were Izetbegovich and Tudjman -- both of whom were about to be charged with "war crimes" before they died. So there were no "innocent/guilty entire ethnic groups" here -- and no "innocent politicians". There were competing ideologies that brought those "Mujahadin" to your side, just as Milosevic was willing to deal with anyone including Saddam after the NATO bombs began falling on him.

6. Milosevic has been gone from power for years and is dead now, but you act like he is still living next door. He's not. And thanks to Clinton stupid decisions, we in America are more vulnerable today than we were before -- having pissed off what could have been one of our strongest allies in the war on terror -- Serbia.

7. By the sound of your attitude toward "Serbs", we solved nothing. We just put a lid on something that sooner or later is still due to boil over as soon as the lid is removed.

Bosnia was a "failed mission" for America, and one that has already come back to bite us!

Kristian said...

To: all blogger that use their heads for peace..


Cv..., bg... and the anonymous albanian.


First I'm surprised by Cv.... We've had our debates before but you've always took a radical view of things. But bravo for your comments. You definately deserve a hand shake and a beer! Cheers..

As I've preached before. Ppl of all sides must move on. If all the countries of the balkans do join the EU in the future, then borders will not matter.

The continent of Europe is progressing towards becomming similar to the USA. Many states with no border restrictions, free trate, and freedom of movement. You will be able to live whereever you want!

So the issue of borders today will eventually dissapear. Don't think in the immediate but look long term. It will happen and it will be a better place for all.

Finger pointing is a waste of time. Just remember when you point at someone. One finger points at the individual, three are pointing towards yourself and one points upwards. The index finger shows that the accused is one times at fault, the three fingers pointing towards yourself show that your 3 times at fault, and the finger pointing upwards shows that God is a witness to all.

So peace to everyone, for in order to achieve it we must all participate to gain it. Its a rough road but not impossible to achieve.

God bless....

Ahmet N Murati (ahmet_murati@bluewin.ch) said...

"At 6:57 AM, Anonymous said...

O Ahmet N Murati,

Do të vijë dita shumë shpejtë, e do të na njohish shumë mirë neve Shqiptarët e pastër. Tani për tani nuk keni nevoj të na njihëni. Ju dhe tipat si ju janë duke e ngadalësuar për të mos thënë ndaluar kombin tonë që të riintegrohët përsëri në/kah perendimi.
"

Kush duhet të integrohet më shumë se unë me Perendimin
Pse të jesh Musliman jo fundamentalist qenka problem në këtë botë? Ti zgjedhi fjalet edhe lexo me mire e mos filozofo me ideologjin komuniste. Mos perdor sharje se une jam shqiptar qe guxoj t'i flas qart e shqip e anglisht ne interesat e shqiptarise jo ne Turqi e Arabi por këtu ku jemi vet shqiptarë në Kosovë

Sa për dijeni unë prej krejta gjuhëve që di asnjë nuk figuron të jetë nga Lindja

di të flas shqip që gjuha ime amtare.
Anglisht, frëngjisht, italisht, spanjisht, gjermanisht edhe këtu hynë kroacishtja, gjuha boshnjake, serbishtja dhe maqedonishtja. Tjerat hiq asnjë fjalë nuk di as turqisht e as arabisht edhe nuk dua të jam servil i asnjë sistemi apo shteti tjetër vetëm për Kosovën Shtet i Barabartë me të gjitha shtetet me karrikë në Kombet e Bashkuara edhe në Parlamentin Europian (he he para serbisë, urime shkije keni mbetur prapa), e kështu me rradh.


Kështu që mos fol për ata shqiptarë të vërtetë pse mos janë shqiptarë të vërtetë vetëm shqiptarët protestant apo katolik apo ata të pa fe (ateistat). Një gjë që na bën neve shiptarët është harmonia në mes të konfesioneve që kanë shqiptarët, islamit, katolikët roman, ortodoksët, e ndoshta edhe protestantët se për tjerë nuk di.

gujgli said...

"As I've preached before. Ppl of all sides must move on. If all the countries of the balkans do join the EU in the future, then borders will not matter."

I think this is not true. It could be a long discussion about EU, but the fact that people of Holland and France already rejected the new constitution of EU means somenthing.

In addition, you can never make parallels between USA and EU simply because there is so much differences then similarities.

If we start on point that EU one day will not be in form like it is today, then we come to the beginning of story.

Anonymous said...

The facts are that as long as Albanians do not know about birth control they will be a very poor people. The poorest in Europe in fact. What they need is a China like One child policy.

Cvijus011 said...

kristian,

My views from before are the same right now, it's not as if I "found the light", it is just that there are some issues (which concern the present and the future) on which the both of us would most probably agree and that my friend isn't miracle. After all you have always been the only albanian on this blog that was open for a proper discussion without insults and because of that I would most probably enjoy going for a pint with you.

bg anon said...

gujgli - oh Im in Belgrade alright. Whats more I choose to live here. I could leave tomorrow, I have the papers, but feel strongly that people should stay.
Particularly people with something to offer to this society.

As you know many smart people left Serbia during the 90's. That brain drain didnt do any good.

Im good at sensing the situation. Yeah of course right now there are no signs of any protests. But Im operating under the premise that if this situation drags on for weeks and months.

You watch how the public mood will blacken if that happens. The media too will line up (drip drip) one by one against Mladic and get involved.

If sanctions are threatened this time people will not tolerate it. I will not only join them but take a hand in organising protests if necessary. The only way an effective campaign could be mounted would be if it really was of ordinary people. So whilst the politicians can join they should be prevented for exploiting the situation.

There is a line to be drawn. Surely even you have a limit?

Now (everybody) I dont sweep things under the carpet even if they are nasty arguments:

Its true that Kosovo Albanians have a high birth rate. But hey Kosovo Serbs had the second highest birthrate in the former Yugoslavia (the average was 1.3 children less than Kosovo Albanians I think, not such a large difference). Some unholy ethnic theorists probably can picture the two bitter enemies trying to outbreed one another. :(

Cut the crap. Its proven by sociologists and demographers the world over that in rural and undeveloped communities the birthrate is higher. Exactly to form Kosovo as the most undeveloped region of Yugoslavia had the highest birthrate and Slovenia, the most developed, the lowest.

Big deal. Now next time a conspiracist starts going on about this issue answer him with the above reply and tell him to move on.

Anonymous said...

"Im good at sensing the situation. Yeah of course right now there are no signs of any protests. But Im operating under the premise that if this situation drags on for weeks and months.You watch how the public mood will blacken if that happens."

Nothing will occure even if this situation go on for years. Of course it won't, he'll be in Hague or Del Ponte will step down. Her mandate is over by the end of next year. If Mladic somehow stays free which i doubt he'll be a free man in 2008.

Karadzic is even in better situation, there is no evidence where he could be nor time to organize new investigations.

And again, oppinions poll show that Mladic still got majority of support, that's very important and you can't ignore it.

bg anon said...

Like I said anon its a matter of time. It will unfold as I outlined the longer Mladic holds Serbia hostage.

It has become unimportant now whether he's guilty or not. Whats important is that people in Serbia will be affected by the situation in a negative way.

If Mladic is so popular where are the protests supporting him? As you see they are arresting all his confidants now. And nothing from his supporters...

No, even those who are suspicious of the Hague, or even those who think he might be innocent are ready to accept his arrest.

Chris Blaku said...

To the bigots that seek humor in the fact that Albanians have a high birth rate, it should be noted that from since World War 2, census figures have shown that ALL inhabitants of Kosova share reproduction figures. That means that the Serbians of Kosova, not those of Serbia, had the very same rate of reproduction as their Albanian co-inhabitants. So much for the reproductive theory of invasion you guys virtually commit to memory. By the way, statement is courtesy of Noel Malcolm in his book, Kosovo.

gujgli said...

"It has become unimportant now whether he's guilty or not. Whats important is that people in Serbia will be affected by the situation in a negative way."

Thank God you ain't running Serbia, i guess you would extradict everyone but yourself. Of course, it's not important if we are guilty or not, that's the way it must be. Sad.

Nations with even less dignity and honour than us would never send their generals to the court in another country. Needless to say that pressure doesn't stop there. Del Ponte said today that Karadzic is next after she complete Mladic case. Guess where she will ask for answers?

And another thing, Croatia got official candidate status for EU membership in June 2004 and guess who was free man at the time? Another general, Gotovina. This amount of pressure and we aren't even close to the step when Croats arrested Gotovina. Simply BS.

"If Mladic is so popular where are the protests supporting him? As you see they are arresting all his confidants now. And nothing from his supporters..."

Now go back and see your posts, you claimed that you will organize protest if this thing with Mladic goes on, not me. So again, when and where you will organize this, i guess for the transport of all your co-protestants bus is out of question? Car also? Maybe bike will do it.

My point in regard of Mladic popularity was on oppinion polls that say radicals and socialists would easy win the elections and form a new government in this moment. To remind you, both parties are greatly against any extradictions. Also, you got people like me, who voted against them but also i'm against extradictions. So, numbers go up.

As of protests, our people have not energy left for any kind of protest now. It's not even related to this issue really.

bg anon said...

gujgli Mladic is one person. Serbia is 10 million. What dont you understand about that?

Dignity and honour. Heh heh. Define that to me please. Im serious what does it mean? (The last refuge of the scoundrel). You know using the words 'national dignity' doesnt fool or manipulate the majority anymore in Serbia.

Well perhaps it works with uneducated voters but middle Serbia isnt fooled by it as they used to be. And that means you too - I dont think you are uneducated, you are likely part of that middle Serbia. I read your words but you will have to decide whats more important to you. I dont represent NGO or Cedo Jovanovic Serbia. I see that as unhealthy as a Radical party Serbia. I also see that quite often the Radicals are in the right. My eyes are open about all of this. The national interest is that Mladic goes to the Hague.
Thats my opinion, if it makes me some kind of enemy for you, I am really sorry.

Your point about Croatia - Britain refused to let Croatia proceed with EU negotiations until Gotovina was arrested. Remember that? Del Ponte knew that Gotovina was about to be arrested - remember that?

Croatia has been in the queue for EU membership for nearly a decade - remember that? When we were fighting in Bosnia, Kosovo and against NATO Croatia was lobbying for EU membership. Who were the fools, you tell me?
You are using that as evidence of a conspiracy against us? Come on man.

I am not a dishonest person, if you want to give me instances of unfair treatment of Serbs probably we will agree most of the time. But the difference is that I also remember the times when we Serbs have been unfair to others as well.

I am a human being and individual first of all and a member of an ethnic group or country only after that.

So, yes I will help organise protests if or when they become necessary. I will not allow these people in this country to suffer anymore. It is our joint interest.

Chris Blaku said...

Your righteous intentions should be applauded, but do not attempt to rid the Serbian people of any blame for their inattention, and even their support of those that it is no longer fashionable to support and idolize. I am not suggesting we punish the people forever, but do not abolish them of any responsibility.

gujgli said...

bg anon,

"Mladic is one person. Serbia is 10 million. What dont you understand about that?"

Serbia had political and military leadership which represented that 10 million in one period.

All of them are in Hague and even some of them were murdered there. Some of them unlawfully abducted, some arrested with their black bags on heads. That kind of embarrassment Serbia didn't see for decades.

On the other hand, we got Abu Ghraib prison where we all know what heppened and how, but the US respect for the soldiers who are sleeping with death every night doesn't allow to treat them with anything but respect. Even if they commited crimes only US will judge them.

Why Serbia can't do that? Why Serbia can't judge Milosevic? Mladic? He would surrender immediately. I know Serbia is not US ;) but again, we must extradict Mladic to show that we are democratic society but we can't judge him because we're not? That some biased approach.

"I read your words but you will have to decide whats more important to you. The national interest is that Mladic goes to the Hague.

For me, democratization and prosperity of Serbia is most important thing. But i don't think this way of dealing with Serbia will make Serbia more democratic. Quite the opposite. And there we disagree once again, i don't think the national interest is that Mladic goes to Hague. Once and for all, it's court designed for rewriting history with special assignment to influence political scene in this particular moment. Evidence are clear, for example, delaying trial of Seselj for 3 years because of his extramist and destabilizing impact on politics in Serbia, and otherwise letting Haradinaj go free and then allowing him to be active in Kosovo politics.

Needless to mention biggest war criminal of all, Agim Ceku, who is free man, intentionaly selected for PM because of his impact as a former war leader. That's some facts, that's not court and that's not our national interest. Aside, that period od 10, 20 years is really small period historicly speaking. We must save our territory (Kosovo and Metohija), our people and our dignity because money, Hague, EU goes, Serbia and your dignity always stays. For another generations.

"I am a human being and individual first of all and a member of an ethnic group or country only after that."

Great, but in general that idea of civic instalment in Balkans will never have majority. Maybe i'm wrong, but i think that every country in Balkans got constitution that starts with 'Respecting the will of ------ nation and all other citizens'.

So, maybe you wait another century to see something different. Till then, move to Australia. ;-)

"So, yes I will help organise protests if or when they become necessary. I will not allow these people in this country to suffer anymore.. "

Yes, i heard it a hundred times already. God sent you back to save the Serbs. Please, don't affraid people.

We heard that before Milosevic extradiction, we heard it before Sljivancanin extradiction etc.

Nothing will specially happened besides Carla's wish for another mandate. It may take a year longer, but they didn't even count us to be in EU before 2013 so...

Chris Blaku said...

Again, you offer no proof of Ceku's "terrorist" roots. Kosova was never your territory, it was occupied and illegally bled dry.

Also, Mladic cannot be tried in Serbia simply because your nation has absolutely zero credibility in the eyes of the international community. ZERO.

Anonymous said...

"Why Serbia can't judge Milosevic? Mladic? He would surrender immediately. I know Serbia is not US ;) but again, we must extradict Mladic to show that we are democratic society but we can't judge him because we're not? That some biased approach"

The answer is quite simple actually:
First, Mladic been in serbia for over 10 years and you have done nothing other than glorify him -why wasn't he arrested if you are so unbiased?
Second, the war criminals of Germany,Japan and Rewanda were not tried by their own country but rather the allies. Why should your war criminals be any different.

Th truth of the matter is that Serbia is not a democratic society-quite few of the parlamient members are from Millosevic part and radical party-hence the mistrust of the world towards them. And finally how many deadlines and promises have Sebian government made to deliver Mladic, yet Eu for some reason always expects optimistic results-how dissapointing...

gujgli said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
gujgli said...

to anonymous,

"The answer is quite simple actually:
First, Mladic been in serbia for over 10 years and you have done nothing other than glorify him -why wasn't he arrested if you are so unbiased?"

After Milosevic fall in october 2000, every wanted person by Hague tribunal was arrested and extradicted.

Only a few including Mladic are on the run, Mladic got a network of associates which covered his movement very good and that network still working. Simply he got support in ordinary people.

He is the only Serb general who didn't lose in Balkan wars and made corner stone for Serbs in todays Republika Srpska. All support comes from that.

"Second, the war criminals of Germany,Japan and Rewanda were not tried by their own country but rather the allies. Why should your war criminals be any different."

Comparations with Germany and Japan are very bad. WW2 and country that broke apart with civil war later is two really different things.

There can be similarities with Rwanda, but in civil war in former Yugoslavia bloody shares have many countries that later formed the Hague tribunal. And how that is no one guilty for NATO atrocities in 1999? That's a policy of double standards and when you have double standards you don't have justice.

"And finally how many deadlines and promises have Sebian government made to deliver Mladic, yet Eu for some reason always expects optimistic results-how dissapointing..."

Look at the list of FBI's top ten most wanted. How US can't find them?

You may give promise that you will do everything to arrest him, but no one can promised that he will be certainly arrested till specific time. Kostunica even denyed Del Ponte lies over that promises yesterday.

gujgli said...

c.blaku,

"Again, you offer no proof of Ceku's "terrorist" roots. Kosova was never your territory, it was occupied and illegally bled dry."

Vladan Batic, Minister of Justice in Zoran Djindjic era, gave Del Ponte 2 tones of documented evidence against war criminal Ceku, we issued international warrant and he was arrested twice. Once, when he makes mistake and turn somewhere outside the UNMIK reach, he'll be in jail for life. And now he's your PM. Terrorist PM.

Rest of your quote, BS.

"Also, Mladic cannot be tried in Serbia simply because your nation has absolutely zero credibility in the eyes of the international community. ZERO."

Iraqi government also has zero credibility in the eyes of in.com. and in eyes of own people. But there is no way they would lose chance to judge him by themselves. I heard calls from in.com. after Saddam's fall that he must face international tribunal, but Iraqis refused it almost immediately. And he was much worser for Iraqis, then Milosevic for Serbia.

bg anon said...

gujgli

If we are talking about Mladic issue then Mladic was military leader of the Bosnian Serbs. Again, I cant tell you strongly enough he is only one man. This isnt the 1990's any more (or the 1800's). States are made up of citizens who are more numerous and more important than military or political leaders.

Not all the Serbian leadership is at the Hague. There are the Kontic's the Kostic's and Jovic's, the Kadijevic's etc. And it was only recently that (kako se zove onaj?...) you know with the crooked mouth General who led a political party (SDP)... Anyway, he was sent to the Hague only recently.

Whether they were murdered there or not is another question. I have never been a fan of conspiracies, such opinions always leave a person easier to manipulate. I prefer facts. But I do agree that the recent happenings at the Hague were a serious embarassment for the Hague and its credibility. Also embarassing was when Del Ponte and that Doctor started to use similar conspiracy theories saying that Milosevic poisoned himself. Well, they soon shut up about that didnt they?

I think that the way the US has run Guantanamo and Abu Garib is a disgrace. An absolute disgrace which undermines their human rights. That is not the way to run the planet in my opinion and lets face it the US practically does run the planet, well them and the multinationals.

I dont want US courts to judge US soldiers! For Gods sake you must know they will be biased in favour of their own. They think their own are 'precious babies' and that anybody against them deserves what they get. So, no your argument doesnt work at all. If anything that argumentation persuades me more that suspected war criminals cant be tried in their own countries.

But, putting that argument to one side. Lets be serious about this. Do you honestly believe that Milosevic wouldnt have made a circus out of the proceedings against him if they began in Serbia in 2001? Our country was still run by criminals until recently. Look at how Legija, Cume and those thugs could do what they want. Look at that crook Klajevic. Look at all those crooked judges! Most were appointed by Milosevic government. Fair trial?

No it would not have been possible for Milosevic to be tried in Serbia. You must recognise this. Maybe you could reply that biased justice in Serbia would have been better than biased justice in the Hague but Im not sure.

Look at how it started with the financial charges. If Milosevic managed to get out of that one, the Stambolic charge would have come up. That too would have been a circus and if he managed to be acquitted then the Curuvija charge, then possibly under international pressure a war crimes charge.

The Radicals and Socialists would claim persecution of Milosevic and the situation would not be so different from today, except there would be even more hatred between the so called patriotic and democratic blocks. Bitter hatred, even worse than today.

I think that the idea of citizenship of civic responsibility must take hold in the Balkans (and elsewhere). One can remain patriotic, keep ones own culture alive (I would argue abandon parts of your culture if they are negative, ie blood feuds, and maintain positive aspects of your culture at all costs, but that is my personal opinion).

So, I think once some time has passed it will be possible. Some people will never be persuaded. They will always consider those of other ethnic groups as somehow inferior. They are a lost cause, although we should try to educate them anyway.

On Ceku, I said it before. I really dont like warlords or people that kill, as political leaders. In fact I just dont like murderers whether they murdered in so called freedom fighting cause or butchered civilians isnt so different to me.

Im afraid most of what you say regarding him is correct but I cant condemn him until he is tried.

And again I agree with most of what you say (in your post to me) about the Hague. Its not your opinion btw its quite factual what you say. I cant stand Seselj personally and think he's dangerous, but its a disgrace that he's been waiting in custody for years. Its a joke. He gave himself up voluntarily even before they drew up the charges. But when Haradinaj gives himself up, he is released immediately.

So, yes thats double standards or hypocricy. But and this is the important bit, just because we know that is the truth does not give us reason to start supporting people like Seselj out of bitterness. You have to use your head about what you think will bring benefit to this country. Yeah the way the world is run stinks but its not as if we in Serbia have been much fairer to those we have seen as our enemies.

bg anon said...

Chris again, with respect, you have stated something untrue.

Serbia's special war crimes prosecution service has received credit in international circles.
I think it was the OSCE who also stated this in a recent report.

The Hague and Del Ponte also commended them and we are waiting to see whether its true that some cases will be transferred from the Hague to the Serbian court.

As you can see in my previous post I had grave reservations about trying characters such as Milosevic or Mladic until recently. For top figures like that its still difficult but i'd be willing to put my neck out and say that trials of less important figures can now be tried succesfully and fairly in Serbia.

There have been some cases such as Sasa Cvjetan which have been tried succesfully. Im not an expert on the law but I understand there are more cases going through the courts. This is a rare positive so Im happy to report this.

gujgli said...

bg anon,

“Not all the Serbian leadership is at the Hague. There are the Kontic's the Kostic's and Jovic's, the Kadijevic's etc. And it was only recently that (kako se zove onaj?...) you know with the crooked mouth General who led a political party (SDP)... Anyway, he was sent to the Hague only recently.”

Great, from all military and political staff you mentioned 4 guys that are absolutely minor figures that nobody asked nothing in war period. Kontic, man…;)

”Whether they were murdered there or not is another question. I have never been a fan of conspiracies, such opinions always leave a person easier to manipulate. I prefer facts.”

Whether they are murdered is very important question and that’s what really happened. I’ll remind you, Milosevic asked court to let him go in Moscow for medical care, court refused it, he died. What’s the term for situation when you intentionally take away someone’s medical care? Murder. That’s fact. Aside that he was already very sick, that trials were delayed many times and neutral doctors said that he urgently need specific medical care.

It’s rule number one for anyone, enable medical care. Immediately.

“I dont want US courts to judge US soldiers! For Gods sake you must know they will be biased in favour of their own. They think their own are 'precious babies' and that anybody against them deserves what they get. So, no your argument doesnt work at all. If anything that argumentation persuades me more that suspected war criminals cant be tried in their own countries.”

But they already do that man, are you blind? I want you to tell me one American soldier who was extradicted to another country/tribunal in their war history? Name only one? One? My argument works perfect. How one country must extradict, and one country refuse to extradict and even protect their soldiers with demands to other countries not to extradict soldiers to some neutral international court?

I’m going with the logic, let the justice work for all, i’ll extradict mine but you extradict yours. Nothing else. But that ain’t happening. And that frustrates not only people in Serbia, but anywhere where bloody conflicts occur with intervening from outside.

“But, putting that argument to one side. Lets be serious about this. Do you honestly believe that Milosevic wouldnt have made a circus out of the proceedings against him if they began in Serbia in 2001? Our country was still run by criminals until recently. “

That criminals got promises before Milosevic fall, devil than came for his, you know that very well. If i’m charged, I don’t give a f… what country can or can’t do on trial. You brought the charges, you trial me. It could be circus, but circus is in the Saddam’s trial also, but they don’t even think about extradicting him. Why we arrested Milosevic then? There was no law in that time which regulated the Hague cooperation. And he was extradicted without any legal argument. Don’t want to mention that he got guarantess from Djindjic that he will not be delivered to Hague? My point is, if the state can do such a thing with ex president, then what can i expect? You talked about civil society in Serbia where citizen is in first place and then you playing ignorant when it’s Milosevic case.

Justice can’t be a selected one. Without exception.

“On Ceku, I said it before. I really dont like warlords or people that kill, as political leaders. In fact I just dont like murderers whether they murdered in so called freedom fighting cause or butchered civilians isnt so different to me.
Im afraid most of what you say regarding him is correct but I cant condemn him until he is tried.”

Why then you saying Kljajevic is crook? He was not trialed also and you already condemned him?!

You’re living in Serbia and Serbia issued valid international warrant for Ceku arrest like for other similar criminals. I expect that you believe them. I would like that Ceku believes them also. By the way, why is he hiding? We abolished Flora Brovina. Maybe we can do same for him.

“So, yes thats double standards or hypocricy. But and this is the important bit, just because we know that is the truth does not give us reason to start supporting people like Seselj out of bitterness. You have to use your head about what you think will bring benefit to this country. Yeah the way the world is run stinks but its not as if we in Serbia have been much fairer to those we have seen as our enemies.”

It’s not the reason i will start to support people like Seselj but it’s the reason i will not support extradiction of anyone else. Don’t treat people like bags, even if you can’t stand their politic behaviour or make false indictments to take them out of politic scene in Serbia. He was taken out of politics in Serbia and the real question for me is who got benefit from that and whose interests are behind it. That’s the real questions.

bg anon said...

gujgli

No that logic doesnt work at all and I'll show you why.

If we are always waiting for one country (or 2 or 3, 4, 5 countries) like the US before we make decisions regarding international policy such as the prosecution of war crimes then NOTHING will be done. You know it and I know it.

One rather banal example perhaps is Kyoto. Do you think that all the countries trying to make an improvement in the worlds environment should throw their hands up and increase their pollution to US levels just because the US wont sign?

In other words by deciding to adhere to a certain line lets say insisting that the US has soldiers tried as well and by knowing that this wont happen what you are really doing is opposing the concept of international justice.

Thats the reality of it isnt it?

I dont agree that no justice is better than some justice.

And yeah you can scream its not fair and you would be right but did anybody ever teach you life was fair? As you've noticed it isnt, this world isnt perfect so its normal to assume that there wont be the same rules for everybody even if we should push as hard as we can to make this so.

I will answer some of your other points later today

bg anon said...

And yes the guy I was referring to was Momcilo Perisic who until he was caught spying for the US wasnt on the Hagues list.

And those guys were not minor figures. Most of them were on the rotating Presidency which used to be one of the most powerful, if not THE most powerful body in Yugoslavia. You can add Momir Bulatovic to that group as well.

Yeah but you dont know that Milosevic was murdered, you believe he was murdered there is a great difference. You know how many people ended up looking stupid after the poison theory went wrong. Both the anti Hague lobby and the pro Hague lobby - each with their own conspiracy theory purely designed to prove and justify their own opinion vis a vis the Hague. Im not interested in their agendas.

If by murder you are referring to the fact that he was not allowed to go to Russia to recover I have a number of points, not used by either side of the debate.

Firstly what would be wrong in his defence applying for recovery in Holland? They have some of the best hospitals in the world there. This would be an ideal solution. The prosecution would be hard pressed to oppose such an application. The only 'concession' to Milosevic is that he would spend some months in a hospital rather than in jail. And there was no question that the jail hospital was inadequate. On the other hand Milosevic would be closeby so that if he made a recovery the trial could resume in a short period as possible.

Secondly what possible incentive would you or I (or anybody) have in a situation where we are being tried by what we firmly believe is an illegal court (which would likely find me or you guilty)? What incentive would either of us or Milosevic have to return to Holland when our (his) family is in Russia and when we know that there are others in a similar position (Djordjevic) who are staying in Russia and there isnt a thing the Hague can do about it?

Man, the truth is you or I would remain in Russia isnt it? I expect that Milosevic would do the same, EVEN, even if he didnt plan to at first. All of them, his wife, his son, his daughter, his brother, his lawyer they would all say 'hej Slobo stay here, you've done enough to defend your country, they will make you die in prison'.
And he would stay.

So, when you tell me that he should have recovered in Russia is that what you are really saying. Or are you saying he should have been allowed to escape. Lets be clear on this. If you are only saying that he should have been allowed to recover then why didnt they request that he recover in another country?

So Milosevic was extradited in an underhand and illegal manner. Maybe, but then what? Laws are being broken in this country every day. Milosevic's government frequently undermined the rights of private citizens. People were tortured, arrested, disapeared. Yeah maybe not as much as some people pretend but it did happen.

And an ex-President Milosevic should expect no extra rights than any private citizen. Certainly he was treated much more decently than he treated Stambolic.

In fact if we use your common rule for what happened to Stambolic as a standard then we should have copied this and had Milosevic killed. I also believe in common rules or principles but think we should always strive to the highest standard not try to copy a standard if it is low and make excuses by saying its not our fault if the general standard is low.

Kljajevic is a crook. The reason I say that is because I have information on his activities. I've been following him and all those other crooks like Radulovic and company and finally somebody is doing something about it. Excuse me for saying it before the court process has begun but I feel strongly about it.

I would 'excuse' any Serb who saw Ceku murder civilians from calling him a murderer before the trial. But although there is serious doubt I dont have such information - although I didnt investigate it. Therefore I dont condemn him as guilty.

But, yes I do think that the warrant should have been honoured. Its a pity because it would give Serbia an opportunity to show its courts have improved. It would be vital he got a fair trial. After all if he's guilty it wont make any difference if the trial is conducted to the best possible standards.

I have told you my opinion about Seselj I think we agree on this. I am not guilty of treating people like bags - that is one charge I am not guilty of. I cant stand people that do that. And you know who treated us most like bags in the 1990's - our own politicians thats who. Those politicians who think we are so stupid that we cant see whats really going on so they sell us cheap lies like Bogoljub's salad or Toma's price of bread.

Some of us may be easy to fool but some of us, including me get very angry when insulted with this kind of thing.