Friday, May 12, 2006

U.S. seeks vision, boldness from Serbs in key year

BELGRADE, May 12 (Reuters) - Serbia and Montenegro should be building a strong and stable democracy deserving of a place in the European Union and NATO but its leaders right now lack the vision, the United States ambassador said on Friday.

Michael C. Polt said 2006 would be a momentous year for the union of two republics that is all that remains of Yugoslavia. It must hand over a top war crimes fugitive, negotiate a new future for the province of Kosovo and settle its own status.

In a statement to Reuters, Polt said the country needed its leaders to show courage, boldness and initiative.

"Serbia and Montenegro's leaders need to articulate and act on a strong, realistic vision for the future, a future in the European Union and in (NATO's) Partnership for Peace," he said.

The country should be "a leader in the Balkans, an example of prosperity and a keystone of regional stability", he said.

"But right now, I don't see that vision."

Instead, Brussels had this month suspended talks on closer ties because of Serbia's failure to hand over war crimes fugitive Ratko Mladic and Washington "may soon be forced to suspend aid" for the same reason, Polt said.

"Mladic must go to The Hague -- not next week, not in September, not by the end of the year, but now."

Mladic, the wartime commander of the Bosnian Serb Army, is wanted on two charges of genocide in the 1992-95 Bosnian war, for the 1995 Srebrenica massacre of 8,000 Muslims and the siege of Sarajevo which took over 10,000 civilian lives.

The United Nations war crimes tribunal prosecutor says he is hiding in Serbia with protection from hardliners in the military and intelligence services. But local analysts generally doubt his arrest would lead to unrest or political instability.

CLEARING THE AIR

However, failure to deliver Mladic this month opened a big crack in Serbia's two-year-old minority coalition. Deputy prime minister Miroljub Labus walked out of the cabinet of Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica, saying he had betrayed the people.

The resignation -- applauded by Polt -- stoked talk of a coalition collapse leading to an early election -- a possibility that analysts say would not be unwelcome to those of Serbia's western mentors who favour a clearing of the political air.

Polls consisently show one third of voters in Serbia back the hardline nationalist Radical Party, but whether it could win sufficient allies to form a government is another question.

Polt urged the current leadership to display responsibility and vision as strains pile up, with Montenegro deciding its future in an independence referendum on May 21.

The rules say the referendum fails if less than 55 percent chose independence. But pro-independence leaders see 50 percent or more as a mandate to continue the drive for a separate state. "The decision of voters in Montenegro on May 21 is only part of the story," Polt said. "The world is watching how Serbia and Montenegro will handle the referendum results, and whether its leaders will choose to work together."

He also urged Serbian leaders to persuade Serbs that the cherished province of Kosovo -- populated by a 90 percent ethnic Albanian majority and under U.N. administration for the past seven years -- would have its future decided this year.

It must be "a decision ... that respects the rights of all of Kosovo's residents. And Serbia's leaders must work to gain the people's support for that decision", he said.

Kosovo is widely expected to win a form of conditional independence at the conclusion of U.N.-mediated talks this year. The question is whether Belgrade will acquiesce or carry out a threat to declare the province "occupied territory".

"How Serbia and Montenegro handles these three issues will have a decisive impact on its path to regional integration and economic prosperity. It will have a decisive impact on the future of the country, and future of its people," Polt said.

41 comments:

Ahmet N Mruati said...

Well done!

The serbian politicans have been cracked down. Great success!

Anonymous said...

We have to be understanding, this is a nation in transition that has never before seen democracy in its borders. It is not hard to have a democratic constitution, what is hard is educating the people to think democratically. As long as you see Serbs making irrational choices, such as Mladic over prosperity, you know that they have not gotten that vision for the future that Polt talks about yet.

Anonymous said...

UNMIK expects a wave of violence | 09:32 May 11 | B92

PRIŠTINA -- UNMIK police say that the recent increase of attacks on Serbs is a reason for concern in Kosovo.

“After the stoning of the bus, we are practicing in order to react quickly in unforeseen situations, and the mission chief is continuing the investigation.” UNMIK representative Nirad Sing told daily Glas Javnosti, adding that conflicts do not serve in the best interest of Kosovo and that it is time for both sides to realise that.

Commenting the most recent attack on a bus full of Serbs, UNMIK said that these actions are initiated by people who want to see the Kosovo status discussions called off. They added that the situation is getting more and more critical everyday, and that UNMIK will be preparing its police officers for similar incidents.

“On the same night that the United Nations bus which was carrying Serbs was stoned, we started to test our forces to see how fast we can react in unexpected situations.” said UNMIK spokesperson Kelly Collins Mcmurry, adding that UNMIK’s task is to protect all people in Kosovo.

She added that the police are not able to stop all crimes in any region of the world, and that UNMIK is well aware of the potential problems in Kosovo, adding that its forces will be well-prepared.

heku said...

Wait now, we will have shkije who say that they invented democracy and that now they have the best political system (Corrutpion, Nepotism, Torture) and of course that americas opinion is not lawfull...

Komanda e parë për armatim nga Kosova duhët ti dorzohët amerikës.

Luv uncle sam

NYoutlawyer said...

Read the truth about kosovo, the U.S. as usual has it's head in it's ass when it comes to foreign policy.

The Washington Times, May 9

Kosovo consternation
The Washington Times
By James "Ace" Lyons Jr.

Tuesday, 9 May 2006
Among the most important priorities of U.S. global policy is combating the international traffic in drugs and in persons (often a euphemism for women and children forced into prostitution).

Because of the linkage and overlap among terrorist networks and organized criminal gangs, the battle against trafficking is also an integral part of the war on terror.

Fighting organized criminal activities is difficult even in countries with a functioning legal system, honest police and the rule of law. Think how much harder that would be when dealing with an independent country where the authorities are an integral part of the criminal enterprise.

Amazingly, that's what the international community seems to want to help establish in the Serbian province of Kosovo. When Kosovo was placed under United Nations administration and NATO military control at the end of the 1999 war, some hoped the province soon would meet at least minimum qualifications for some kind of independence, as demanded by Muslim Albanians who greatly outnumber the remaining Christian Serbs.

That hasn't happened. Instead the drug, sex slave, weapons, money-laundering, and other illicit trades that helped fuel the conflicts of the 1990s have continued to grow. Just this month Marek Antoni Nowicki, Poland's leading human-rights lawyer and the U.N.'s international ombudsman for Kosovo until last year, denounced the "real criminal state in power" in Kosovo, working right under the nose of the U.N. and NATO. "Crime groups have been able to operate with impunity," said Mr. Nowicki. "These networks can rely on the weakness of the public institutions to sanction their operations." Mr. Nowicki's charges came on the heels of a March 2006 report by the U.N.'s internal watchdog agency, the Office of Internal Oversight, which found the head of U.N. Mission -- who holds virtually dictatorial powers -- derelict for ignoring fraud and other abuses at the airport in Kosovo's capital, Pristina.

None of this should come as any surprise. Even in 1999, when the Clinton administration decided to take military action in support of the so-called Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), there were numerous and credible intelligence and news reports of the KLA's criminal and terrorist inclinations. Predictably, KLA veterans found even more opportunity to ply their illicit trades when, ostensibly demobilized, they were recruited by the UN into Kosovo's police, civil administration, and quasi-military "Kosovo Protection Corps." The foxes were asked to guard the chicken coop -- another U.N. fiasco.

As described in reports issued by the NATO Parliamentary Assembly, criminal activity in Kosovo continues to be closely tied to operations of the Albanian mafia across Europe, from home bases in Kosovo and adjacent areas of Albania and Macedonia. For example (from 2003): "According to the International Organization for Migration and EUROPOL, the principal supplier countries [i.e., for trafficked women] today are Moldova (up to 80 percent: many Moldovan villages do not have any more women), Bulgaria, Romania and Ukraine. The networks used various routes, including the route that passes through Kosovo, Albania, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (see the village of Veledze, the regional centre of prostitution) and Montenegro, then through Italy. The Albanian mafia has set up a real cartel on prostitution. It handles more than 65 percent of the trafficking in women in the Balkans." From 2004: "In Kosovo, as many as 80 percent of internally trafficked victims are children."

The response of international bureaucrats to this disgrace is predictable: ignore it and hope nobody notices. Or even better, pretend all is going well, declare the mission a success -- and hand power over to the criminals as the new sovereign "government."

If that happens, even the minimal interference in the Kosovo-based gangs' operations will be removed. A criminal state not seen since the defunct Taliban regime in Afghanistan will be set up with easy proximity to the rest of Europe.

Such an outcome would make a mockery of some of the United States' most important global security priorities. While the international community desires some sort of "closure" to the ongoing mess in Kosovo (and this is understandable), it is hard to think of a supposed solution worse than independence. Seven years after the 1999 war, this is one Clinton legacy that demands urgent reconsideration.
-----------------------------------

James "Ace" Lyons Jr. is a retired admiral in the U.S. Navy. He is a former commander-in-chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet (the largest single military command in the world), senior U.S. military representative to the United Nations and as deputy chief of Naval operations and was principal adviser on all Joint Chiefs of Staff matters.

Wim Roffel said...

Serbia should be "a leader in the Balkans, an example of prosperity and a keystone of regional stability", accoring to Bolt.

Makes me wonder what he had smoked. Not even the US fits such a profile of perfection. Let alone some Balkan country.

heku said...

"James "Ace" Lyons Jr. is a RETIRED admiral in the U.S. Navy."

That's why he doesn't interest us...


"Antoni Nowicki, Poland's leading human-rights lawyer and the U.N.'s international ombudsman for Kosovo until last year"

What should we think about polish people? They just sent students in Dardania to "show" how important that place is for christianity so please do not come back with people who elected radical christians in the head of their state.

If human traffic flows through Dardania so it has to flow through Serbia no? Oh, of course, it goes round it or they just fly over Serbian territory.
And even more, nor the United Nations nor the Serb very very special services do not have any proof of the implication of Dardania nationals. Tanjug is no proof.
Stop beeing so bad loosers, accept the inevitable.

We will impose you visas to come to Dardania and when you'll come to work to us we'll treat you as Israël treats Palestinians.

Cheers.

heku said...

"James "Ace" Lyons Jr. is a RETIRED admiral in the U.S. Navy."

That's why he doesn't interest us...


"Antoni Nowicki, Poland's leading human-rights lawyer and the U.N.'s international ombudsman for Kosovo until last year"

What should we think about polish people? They just sent students in Dardania to "show" how important that place is for christianity so please do not come back with people who elected radical christians in the head of their state.

If human traffic flows through Dardania so it has to flow through Serbia no? Oh, of course, it goes round it or they just fly over Serbian territory.
And even more, nor the United Nations nor the Serb very very special services do not have any proof of the implication of Dardania nationals. Tanjug is no proof.
Stop beeing so bad loosers, accept the inevitable.

We will impose you visas to come to Dardania and when you'll come to work to us we'll treat you as Israël treats Palestinians.

Cheers.

Mir said...

""James "Ace" Lyons Jr. is a RETIRED admiral in the U.S. Navy."

That's why he doesn't interest us..."

Im just wondering if you know that Admiral is equivalent in the sea to a General on land? I would say it is interesting what someone that high-ranking has to say.

NYoutlawyer said...

Of course he doesn't interest you, SHITpar, he is telling the truth, a truth you do not want to hear.

Adm. Lyons - senior U.S. military representative to the United Nations and served as deputy chief of Naval operations and was principal adviser on all Joint Chiefs of Staff matters.

I think his opinion hold a bit more credibility than yours, hekufukyu!

Anonymous said...

I just had a quick glance over various comments above and realised that some comments are emotionally based. It is quite clear that Albanians at this moment are the only nation who adore Americans and be devoted to them regardless of their foreign policy , in contrary Serbians loathe them. Of course there are problems in Kosovo like everywhere in Balkans and other parts of Europe, however the situation is not as bad as it is presented in various reports. Having been there often and read so many report produced by different foreign experts specializing in Balkans I am certain that the situation will drastically improve if Kosovo was to become an independent state ASAP. Serbia will have the burden removed, Montenegro will prosper in tourism as an independent state attracting the west to invest in tourism together with Albania, Kosovo will be able to get credit from world bank and improve the economy an all in all the entire region will be better off. The American admiral made his comments based on the evidence he had, whether that evidence was objective I am not sure, but for one thing I am certain "Kosovo will achieve the independence" and the Americans will push for it. Serbia won’t accept it. They’ll be offered a reward to join the EU. An unavoidable temptation. The region will thrive

Everyone will live happily ever after.

Cheers

Noel Blackstone England

Anonymous said...

heku. It matters not if the BIG article in our VERY big newspaper interest you or not. Its the fact that you have totally lost credability among the US senators and politicians. Lets see if you get independence. LOL.

Anonymous said...

" U.S. seeks vision, boldness from Serbs in key year

America is really getting good at telling jokes. :P

Anonymous said...

what i don't get is how serbia talks about the US as a country with no influence, when in the contrary it has
the most influental power in the world. I mean you don't like them, fine, but please quit talking about them, as if they are zimbabwe, or worse serbia. sorry just could not resist

James T
Proud US citizen
And a supporter of Kosova, Montenegro Independence

gujgli said...

" James T
Proud US citizen
And a supporter of Kosova, Montenegro Independence"

I don't know why you're proud of supporting terrorist goals (Kosovo and Metohija), but when i remember that US supported Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein too, then, who cares. That mistakes will cost you badly, one way or the other.

Anonymous said...

As another American I have to say something, especially to you G something.

If Kosova/o is a terrorist country, then what does that make serbia? A SUPER-TERRORIST country?

What are you worried aren't serbs the one saying America can't do shit, how we have no influence? Soon you will be sucking our dicks, you wait.

300 bases world wide, hundred of thousands soldiers world wide, nukes, founder and main sponsor of UN, key player in NATO and super power---start sucking dick idiot.

Nick J.

PS
Thanks to American food stamps to keep "mother russia" alive.

bg anon said...

To the last anon. I'd say that your comments would make any allies of the US blush.

Its your assumption that relationships throughout the world are not based on some form of respect for each other but on the stronger threatening the weaker, And that the weaker party should always give in and 'suck dick' as you put it?

Strange, according to that way of thinking you must have been a supporter of Serbian domination of Yugoslavia. What changed? Are you one of those intensely annoying people that supports a different football team every year - depending on who won last year?

Some of the more sane people of the planet actually at least try to have some principle in mind before making decisions.

Anonymous said...

gujgli. I have checked the IP numbers of different bloggers here and the only IP from US is the 7:21 PM blogger. The rest are from Balkans. Kosovo does not have the support to be independent. Wait and see and dont be surprised.

TT4R

heku said...

If we didn't have any support from US senators all those humanitary interventions wouldn't have taken place, just let me remind to your muddy brains that you represent the only one people who forced the almost entire international community to act "illegaly" according to art2§4 of the Chart of United Nations.

So what ever you say we strictly do not care. Your meaning of the situation is a panslavist one that's why you can not see your future. Once your fog is swept come back again and then only we will "talk" (only with swords with people like you).

Don't worry for military ranking, I'm officer at the swiss army, even if we have a very small marine in Marseille (South France) I know what an admiral is...

"gujgli. I have checked the IP numbers of different bloggers here and the only IP from US is the 7:21 PM blogger. The rest are from Balkans"

Personnaly I'm writing from Switzerland... Not very efficient that research ;-)

Anonymous said...

I am commenting from America, and I can tell you are lying.

bg
the world does work on the stronger making the weak, not pressuring, but making them whether they like it or not.

I'll quote you this, because I really like this quote.

"Our enemies will dissarm themselves, if they won't we will make them dissarm themselves."

(those are not the actual words but it's very similar to the above"

heku said...

If we do not get independence how will you govern a country with 20% of its inhabitants having a separationist wish?

That's simply not normal, not human and even worse, not christian!

arianit said...

Of course the strong rule over the weak. Do you think an eagle is the same as a chicken?

Moreover, do you think that Serbia occupied Kosova through reasoning? Boy you guys are hopelessly funny.

gujgli said...

Nick J.

"300 bases world wide, hundred of thousands soldiers world wide, nukes, founder and main sponsor of UN, key player in NATO and super power---start sucking dick idiot."

I really doubt that you saw America anywhere but in Rocky movies.

But, if you are really American, you maybe have bases and nukes but you missing some manners and culture.

gujgli said...

heku,

"If we do not get independence how will you govern a country with 20% of its inhabitants having a separationist wish?"

Few examples of successful autonomy for you: Spain, France, Italy etc...

Now, will you give me one example in the whole world and i mean ONE, where one nation have 2 states one alongside another?

If i may, my suggestion is everything for Albanians except flag in UN, Ministry of Diplomacy and army. I think that this will be a official Serbian proposal to Albanians. I woould like to hear your objections for this proposal and maybe a little pragmatism in your wishes.

Mir said...

Nick J... if you really are from America

The idea that Serbia is a super-terrorist as you call it is... idiotic. You were probably one of those people that watched the Kosovo "problem" unfold on CNN or other so-called "objective" media. If you research on the internet (where independent news is much more common) you will find a different side to the story and even public records (Finnish forensic research at Racak 'massacre', casualty numbers in Kosovo 'ethnic cleansing', etc.). There is simply too much I can say that I don't want to type now.

As for you having power because you have nukes... yeah right. Your country thrives because of capitalism and the 'world power' status (and I truly do commend your nation for achieving the world power status which happens so little in history) not nuclear weapons. If your country didn't use nukes in VIETNAM, I seriously doubt it would happen in Serbia. Your own country fears nukes more than anyone else (except maybe Israel) because you know how many in the world would want to use it against your government for their ridiculous foreign policies. If you use it, its pretty much likely to be a war crime because of either the radiation pollution that would arise or the death of civilians.

Its funny to watch how scared your warhawks are over the possibility that Iran might acquire ONE nuclear bomb. It would be interesting to watch your reaction if Russia denounced the SALT agreements suddenly and re-armed their nuclear arsenal.

Sacred Dardanicum said...

Mir about the idea that Reçak Massacre was not carried by Serbians forget it we got similar samples all over Balkan and how come that Serbians didn't make it, it is in their blood to do things like that. Just remember what Serbians did during Ottoman Rule in Balkan.

I do write only from Prishtina the capital of Dardania.

P.S. I am Ahmet N Murati

heku said...

Well, Spain was the first nation State ever known and this is true since the 15th century. Have you ever been in Spain? Im just coming back from Barcelona and I can honestly tell you that if there was no economical growth theese guys would have kill each-other and Im sure about it.
Regionalism and polarisation in Spain is such a problem that they couldnt even achieve the unification of linguistic field.

Youre talking about a nation with two countries alongside, but dont we say that when you have an extraordinary situation this means an extraordinary solution?
And even more, in my personal opinion, we cannot say that albanians and Dardania people are exactly the same. We had different faith and diffrernt history since 3-4 centuries so I think that our "country" can be seen as a brother state but certainly not as containing the same nation or the definition that you can have of a nation (check Renans one, end of 19th century).

Otherwise I could return you the same question? How do you explain Serbia and Bulgaria with a common boarder? Arent you slave people? This is the same for us.

DimTuc said...

Gujgli said:
"Now, will you give me one example in the whole world and i mean ONE, where one nation have 2 states one alongside another?"

How do you define "nation" Gujgli? Is it peoples who have common language, cultural traditions, history etc?

Even on the strictest definiton, there is Germany and Austria. No, since the largest group in Switzerland also speak German, we could say three countries in Europe are "german", but one of them is multi-ethnic, becuase there are also French and Italians, just like Kosova should be multi-ethnic, Albanian majority with Serb and other minorities. Ditto Belgium and France. But I suppose most Swiss feel "Swiss" rather than germna or French, and Belgians pribably feel belgian rather than French or Dutch, and who knows maybe most kosovars will eventually feel "Kosovar" (or "Dardanian") once they are comfortable in their multi-ethnic independence (I know that's a horrible idea to Serbian ethnic supremacists, like osme on this list, and a few Albanian supremacists as well)

What about Cyprus? Greek majority (80%) Turkish minority (20%). Should it be part of Greece, or Turkey, or a multi-ethnic independent state? Obviously the only solution is the later. The fact that greek and Turkish supremacists and the expansionists in the "mother countries" fucked it up doesn't alter the fact that bi-comminal independence, as the EU supports, is the only long-term solution. So that could be called another "country" where the "Greek nation" is the main group, though I think most Greek and Turkish Cypriots also think of themsleves as "Cypriots." Ironically, despite Greek and Serbian supremcists having an opportunist alliance (they're still fighting "Ottomans" in their head), if we use the Serbian supremacist argument for kosova - ie Kosova should belong to Serbia though Serbs a re a small minority there - then we would have to use the Turkish supremacist argument for Cyprus - ie it should belong to Turkey even though Turks are a minority there.

What about Azerbijan, Turkmenistan etc? Don't they speak Turkish? They are other countries aren't they? What about Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Palestine, Gulf states, Saudi Arabia etc? Aren't they part of the Arab nation? What about Chile, Argentina, Bolivia, Peru, Columbia, Venezuela etc - they all speak the same language, have similar cultural roots and histories and traditions.

What about the US and canada? Try telling me the difference there.

One solution: an indepdnent Kosova for all its peoples, based on multi-ethnic democracy and equality. Can it really be that difficult?

Of course, that's what the Bosnians tried, and succeeded in for 45 years (not to mention the previous 1000 years) until a bunch of massively armed Serbian neo-Nazis appeared and smashed the place to bits to create an ethnically purified desert to call a "Serb republic" by expelling a couple of million non-Serbs. That was creating a "second country" for the "Serb nation" wasn't it? The difference is, wow what a way to do it!!

Serbs In Kosovo are in Danger said...

It was Alija Izetbegovich who was ethnically intolerant. Calling Bosnia a muslim nation and seeking to join muslim organization eve though the majority was Christian.

No matter what the ethnic makeup Kosovo is a part of Serbia. Nothing can ever change that.

DimTuc said...

Izetbegovic did not call Bosnia a "Muslim nation". Find the quote man. In fact he said it cannot become a Muslim nation because altough Muslims are a great many, they are not the majority. Yes, I can find the quote if necessary. H headed a government which involved Serbs and Croats. Some of the Serb "leaders" quit the government that they were until then a part of and began trying to destroy it and destroy the country and entire multi-ethnic society, using one of the biggest military machines of Europe to do it with. If you're gonna pretend to be in favour of multi-ethnic existence in Kosova and pretend to be concerned about possible "genocide against Serbs in Kosovo" as your name suggests, it's probably not a good idea to go around defending the most savage balkan Nazis of the 1990s, Karadzic, Mladic, Seselj etc and bullshit that it was all Izetbegovic's fault. That's UFO stuff man.

Serbs In Kosovo are in Danger said...

Why did Izetbegovich go to Turkey for Islamic country conference?

mitrovica pika pika said...

"Why did Izetbegovich go to Turkey for Islamic country conference?"
So by your logic going to the conference implies he was a muslim fundamenalist. WOW.Keep these gems comming and soon they will remove even serbia's independence!

Sacred Dardanicum said...

Well if the Alija Izetbegovic was such an intorelant toward the other nations how come the you serbians and monternetgrins attacked Bosnia and masacred such a lot of muslims in Srebrenica.

Mir said...

"Mir about the idea that Reçak Massacre was not carried by Serbians forget it we got similar samples all over Balkan and how come that Serbians didn't make it, it is in their blood to do things like that. Just remember what Serbians did during Ottoman Rule in Balkan."

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a8e7f557ebf.htm

DimTuc said...

"Why did Izetbegovich go to Turkey for Islamic country conference?"

Got it. Now we know why Karadzic and his jackboots destroyed a country, bombed and besieged all its towns and cities for 3 and a half years, killed at least 100,000 people, expelled 2 million from their homes, smashed a multi-ethnic society, in which a quarter of the population were in mixed marriages or mixed births, to pieces to create a racist 'Serb Republic' in half of Bosnia that the US and EU scandalously let him keep, now we know why all this had to happen.

Because izetbegovic had attended a conference.

gujgli said...

dimtuc, nice name... ;)

"Even on the strictest definiton, there is Germany and Austria. No, since the largest group in Switzerland also speak German, we could say three countries in Europe are "german", but one of them is multi-ethnic, becuase there are also French and Italians, just like Kosova should be multi-ethnic, Albanian majority with Serb and other minorities."

It would be a nice discussion about 'nation' term if we could have more time, i searched it on google a little and saw numbers of definitions from theories about joint ancestors to modern theories which relate to citizenship as part of understanding the nation progression. So, i don't want to expand the issue but i want briefly to touch your examples even you still avoided to answer my proposals (no UN, no army, no M.of Diplomacy).

First pair of your examples are completely questionable, aside that every German will be offended if you call him Austrian and vice versa, the fact that term 'multiethnicity' is in your every sentence breaks your every argument at the start.

Where is multiethnicity in Kosovo and Metohija (KaM) now? How you even think that you can accomplish it when Serbs in KaM don't have basic human rights and don't tell me it's serbian propaganda. I can understand Albanian greef because of various war crimes that were done to them but shouting about multiethnic society through the window and then throwing bombs through the door is mirror of hypocrite. I guarantee you that not one Serb will stay if KaM got independece. Not because they will blindly follow the Belgrade demands but because of basic survival that is currently in danger in KaM.

"What about Cyprus? Greek majority n(80%) Turkish minority (20%). Should it be part of Greece, or Turkey, or a multi-ethnic independent state? Obviously the only solution is the later."

Again, bad example. All similarities with KaM and Cyprus starts and ends with the fact that Cyprus got independence 1960 and enter EU two years ago. I don't remember KaM in UN or EU ever, or i'm just outdated? Plus you're constantly ignoring or just forgetting fact that Serbs ARE NOT minority in KaM because KaM after 1244 UN Resolution is part of Serbia, therefore Albanians are minority in Serbia. So, parallel with Cyprus really doesn't stand a chance.

"One solution: an indepdnent Kosova for all its peoples, based on multi-ethnic democracy and equality. Can it really be that difficult?"

You didn't give me any argument for independence other than right of self determination which can lead us to 10 more states in Europe only? And don't bring the argument, 'Serb regime was repressed us' because democratic regime is now in Belgrade and you will not be under repression again.

No flag in UN, no KaM army, no Ministry od Diplomacy, can it be so difficult?

"Of course, that's what the Bosnians tried, and succeeded in for 45 years (not to mention the previous 1000 years) until a bunch of massively armed Serbian neo-Nazis appeared and smashed the place to bits to create an ethnically purified desert to call a "Serb republic" by expelling a couple of million non-Serbs."

Oh i love it, when i don't have any examples i just look at your post again and there is always a smile waiting for me. ;)

Bosnia and Republic of Srpska (RS) are perfect for KaM comparations. We have in RS vast majority of Serbs who would go for referendum immediately and there would be 99% votes for union with Serbia but in reality we have process of pure centralization of Bosnia and ignoring self determination rights by the EU and US politicions. Simply why? Every argument that works for KaM independence clearly works for RS and vice versa. So again, why? Why is someone supporting KaM independence and on the other side of river same solutions are unnapropriate? I don't believe in conspiracies but i believe that not one major power beside Russia really wants to see Serbia as a dominant and stabilizing factor on Balkan which by the size and importance is natural.

But i assure you, that on behalf of territorial sovereignty we will not go in compromise and thats already agreed by all parties from democrats to radicals. Thank God.

mitrovica pika pika said...

'Serb regime was repressed us' because democratic regime is now in Belgrade and you will not be under repression again."

Right from the mouth of a fucking rapist.Does anyone dare not believe his words.

DimTuc said...

At 7:19 AM, gujgli said...
"dimtuc, nice name... ;)"

why thank you. hope you recognise its implications

"So, i don't want to expand the issue but i want briefly to touch your examples even you still avoided to answer my proposals (no UN, no army, no M.of Diplomacy)."

sorry my aim was to reply to the statement that there was nowhere in the world where the same nation has more than one country. I gave you loads of examples. It is not up to me to answer your proposals. In theory they might be OK for somewhere in the world, but it is pretty obvious that in the real world of the Balkans, there is no way the Albanians of Kosova will accept anything less than full equality. Still less will they accept less than equality if it is a proposal by Serbia. If Kosova was to have no UN seat and no army, they might rightfully ask why Serbia, Croatia, Macedonia etc have the right to such things.

"First pair of your examples are completely questionable, aside that every German will be offended if you call him Austrian and vice versa,"

A German probably would not want to be called an Austrian, just as an Albanian (from Albania) would be rather confused if you called him a "Kosovar". However, Austrians historically were always germans; it is a mere accident of history that it was left outside united Germany. Hence very similar to Albania and Kosova, a very good example.

"the fact that the term 'multiethnicity' is in your every sentence breaks your every argument at the start."

No it isn't, for example that is the case with Switzerland, whereas Austria is pretty uniformly German (except immigrants etc). I gave loads of examples not involving multi-ethnicity. I gave examples of multi-ethnic countries because I think that is the destiny of the new independent country of Kosova, which will distinguish it from Albania - it will be a country with a clear Albanian majority, but due its history the minorities will have official recognition as part of that state.

"Where is multiethnicity in Kosovo and Metohija (KaM) now? How you even think that you can accomplish it when Serbs in KaM don't have basic human rights and don't tell me it's serbian propaganda."

If you read my posts you will see nothing of claiming the situation of Serbs in Kosova is "all Serbian propaganda". The current situation is certainly unacceptable as many responsible Kosova Albanians concede. My opinion is that the LACK of independence is exactly one of the problems - it does not give the Kosova people the full powers to run their cuntry and be responsible for security and hence responsible for lack of security, it intensifies Albanians' feeling that they are discriminated against compared to every other people of the Balkans because they are denied a state and their every move is watched and judged, as if only they committed crimes in the Balkans, and it maintains irrational fears that maybe they won't gget their indepdnence and that will be the fault of the Serbs who still oppose this elementary right of theirs to not have to live under the country that recently tried to annihilate them. That is why I spoke out and congratulated Ceku for his strong words agisnt Albanians fearing and Albanians attacking Serbs. Good on him.

"I can understand Albanian greef because of various war crimes that were done to them but shouting about multiethnic society through the window and then throwing bombs through the door is mirror of hypocrite."

Yes, though I doubt it is the same person doing the two things. This is the problem with much of the discussion on this list: both things are done by members of the Albanian nation so you respond if it is one and the same person, being a hyprocrite. There are people in Serbia calling for peace and equality and multiethnic existence etc, and then there is Seselj. hat does not make every Serb a hypocrite.

I vigorously ciondemn anyone throwing a bomb and I believe we have to create the conditions in which no-one will want to throw a bomb, and those conditions include independence. Meantime, I never ask the serbs to just trust that, I said the international forces should stay to protect the minorities as long as they want them, and I also said if the internationals could get off the Albanians' back and let them run their country then they wouldn't need to spread themselves so thin, and they could do a better job in protecting the minority communities.

"Again, bad example. All similarities with KaM and Cyprus starts and ends with the fact that Cyprus got independence 1960 and enter EU two years ago. I don't remember KaM in UN or EU ever, or i'm just outdated?"

These arguments are of no use to reality. Eritrea wasn't in the UN in 1990, angladesh wasn't in 1970. Things change. Serbia was once part of the Ottoman Empire. I suppose you would have argued back then it can't get indepdnence because it is not a recognised state but part of another state. It should just strive for autonomy. We don't want to change borders, it upsets the int'l system etc.

"Plus you're constantly ignoring or just forgetting fact that Serbs ARE NOT minority in KaM because KaM after 1244 UN Resolution is part of Serbia, therefore Albanians are minority in Serbia. So, parallel with Cyprus really doesn't stand a chance."

Legalistic talk annulled by myn last response. But you're getting carried away: my point was to answer your point that there was nowhere in the world where the same nation has mopre than one country. Thus I answered it famously.

"You didn't give me any argument for independence other than right of self determination which can lead us to 10 more states in Europe only?"

I'm afraid I do not find that as terrifying an idea as you, even if it were true

"And don't bring the argument, 'Serb regime was repressed us' because democratic regime is now in Belgrade and you will not be under repression again."

Well, it's not "me" that Belgrade repressed, have a look at 'DimTuc' and think about it.

The "democratic" regime is a matter of opinion. But in any case, the Kosovar case for indepdnence stands on its own, separate to the current regime. I don't think your fine words will chnge the will of the majority.

"Bosnia and Republic of Srpska (RS) are perfect for KaM comparations. We have in RS vast majority of Serbs who would go for referendum immediately and there would be 99% votes for union with Serbia but in reality we have process of pure centralization of Bosnia and ignoring self determination rights by the EU and US politicions. Simply why? Every argument that works for KaM independence clearly works for RS and vice versa. So again, why? Why is someone supporting KaM independence and on the other side of river same solutions are unnapropriate?"

Not comparable at all. I guess you just ignored what I had written about RS, so I'll put here again:

"Of course, that's what the Bosnians tried, and succeeded in for 45 years (not to mention the previous 1000 years) until a bunch of massively armed Serbian neo-Nazis appeared and smashed the place to bits to create an ethnically purified desert to call a "Serb republic" by expelling a couple of million non-Serbs."

The key is "ethnically purified". You say in RS 99% of serbs would vote for independence. You ignore that there has never been anything in Bosnia's 1000 year history called 'RS', it has no ethnic, geographic, historical, cultural or any other validity. 'RS' is merely the area that Karadzic and his fascists armed to the teeth by the dregs of the JNA cut out of Bosnia and expelled the non-Serb population. If all the non-Serbs could return, then your referndum in that particular strange shaped half of Bosnia now called 'RS' would hardly gain 50%. Nearly the whole of east Bosnia all along the Drina had Muslim majorities; Posavina Croat and Muslim. That is the fundamental difference with Kosova: Kosova is a historic region, which was a federal unit in the former Yugoslavia, and it has long had an absolute Albanian majority. If all the serbs returned, they would still be only 10% of the pop'n.

"I don't believe in conspiracies but i believe that not one major power beside Russia really wants to see Serbia as a dominant and stabilizing factor on Balkan which by the size and importance is natural."

Yugoslavia was stable for 45 years because Tito was able to hold back the chetnik-inspired old serb nationalist quest to dominate the region. Since that ghost arose and conquered in the late 1980s, that kind of Serbia has obviously been a factor of instability in the region.

"But i assure you, that on behalf of territorial sovereignty we will not go in compromise and thats already agreed by all parties from democrats to radicals. Thank God."

That's irrelevant, you need to convince the 90% Albanian majority. And I don't like your chance, especially whe you so casually bandy about the neo-Nazi Radicals as one of your allies on this

Bg anon said...

dimtuc, gujgli Im enjoying your discussion. Keep it up!

I might cut in to make a couple of points myself.

gujgli said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
gujgli said...

“why thank you. hope you recognise its implications”

No, explain it to me.

“In theory they might be OK for somewhere in the world, but it is pretty obvious that in the real world of the Balkans, there is no way the Albanians of Kosova will accept anything less than full equality.

If some solutions proved good in the world, I don’t know why Albanians in Kosovo feel like they are some holy people and therefore they need one specific solution which never been implemented before in international relations. Of course, on Serbs expence.

“Still less will they accept less than equality if it is a proposal by Serbia. If Kosova was to have no UN seat and no army, they might rightfully ask why Serbia, Croatia, Macedonia etc have the right to such things.”

They can’t rightfully ask anyone why, especially Serbia, because they are part of Serbia and not internationally recognized independent state. They can ask for all rights that are not in conflict with sovernity and territorial integrity of Serbia.

That’s a core of problem.

You want to get around Serbia, like you’re not part of it. In every document and agreement Serbia is partner which can’t be ignored.

“A German probably would not want to be called an Austrian, just as an Albanian (from Albania) would be rather confused if you called him a "Kosovar".

Of course, but you switched it nicely on that one. Ask any Albanian from KaM, if he feels like Albanian?

And, will he be confused then?
You’re now trying to input that
Albanians from KaM and Albania are not the same in terms of nation. That’s imposible to defend, your every neighbour look at you as Albanians not ‘Kosovars’, whole world look at you in the same way and I don’t really see how can you make comparations with Germans and Austrians who have indeed some joint ancestors but in no way are same nation like you Albanians are.

“ I gave examples of multi-ethnic countries because I think that is the destiny of the new independent country of Kosova, which will distinguish it from Albania - it will be a country with a clear Albanian majority, but due its history the minorities will have official recognition as part of that state.”

You ‘re giving examples of multi-ethnic countries, but I seriously doubt that KaM will
ever be multiethnic if it gains independence, as it showing right now with intolerance toward Serbs. It’s not even realistic to think that Serbs will live in so called ‘independent Kosova’. Maybe they will live on that territory but in no way they will recognize Albanian instirutions or powers of such state.

Then we got locked up situation with no future for KaM residents and accordingly no better life.

“I vigorously ciondemn anyone throwing a bomb and I believe we have to create the conditions in which no-one will want to throw a bomb, and those conditions include independence.”

Is that quote from Ceku’s new guide ‘ Terrorist agenda in 10 lessons’? Say it freely, give us independence and not one person will be killed again, because that is the meaning. Throwing bombs when no one is insulting or endangering you and putting up your political goals behind it is by definition terrorism. Are you simply saying that if you don’t gain independence that you will increase terrorists actions? I don’t mean you, but your fellow Albanians? Is that indirect threat?

“My opinion is that the LACK of independence is exactly one of the problems - it does not give the Kosova people the full powers to run their cuntry and be responsible for security and hence responsible for lack of security, it intensifies Albanians' feeling that they are discriminated against compared to every other people of the Balkans because they are denied a state and their every move is watched and judged, as if only they committed crimes in the Balkans, and it maintains irrational fears that maybe they won't gget their indepdnence and that will be the fault of the Serbs who still oppose this elementary right of theirs to not have to live under the country that recently tried to annihilate them.”

I’m frustrated that Serbs don’t have republic anymore in Croatia, but who cares? List of nice wishes is dangerous path that can lead only to more violence. Tell me precisely, what will be better and what can you do by yourself in independent KaM that you can’t do now with wide autonomy and NATO protection shield? Better investments, proud soccer team, better faculties? What precisely? And you can’t compare with others in terms of your rights on Balkans because you already have one state and especially fact that you never had a recognized ‘Kosova’ state in history. Even in periods when you successfuly controled it, it was never some individual republic or area without strong
relations to present Albania. But we all know very well that your main goal is not some
miniature state like KaM which chances for survival are slim, your leaders and political elite throughout the history had only one goal, Greater Albania, Dardania or some bs like that. Even Rugova, who was not a extremist called for establishing of Dardania few years before his death.

Not to forget to reply you about Tito period, if you thought about Yugoslavia constituition amendments ’74, with that amendments KaM was still part of Serbia. So, really there is no equality parallels with other republics here.

“These arguments are of no use to reality. Eritrea wasn't in the UN in 1990, angladesh wasn't in 1970. Things change. Serbia was once part of the Ottoman Empire. I suppose you would have argued back then it can't get indepdnence because it is not a recognised state but part of another state. “

Comparisions between Ottoman Empire and today’s world in terms of civilazation progress, understanding and resolving territory issues is ridicoulous. I don’t want to even lose time on that. The fact that you find 2 countries that somehow fits your description fits the mine too, aside that one was seceded and second awarded both are among poorest states in the world. Eritrea maybe most poorest and still in civil war. I hope you don’t want same for your people are you?

"You didn't give me any argument for independence other than right of self determination which can lead us to 10 more states in Europe only? - I'm afraid I do not find that as terrifying an idea as you, even if it were true.”

Self determination till independence today unfortunately depends more on political influence then on international law, but it is rare that this process runs peacefully anywhere in the world.

I think that you must be aware that self determination process today includes military conflicts in all posible varieties, so if you are okey with 10 more local wars in your neighborhood that your wild choice, not mine...

“Not comparable at all. I guess you just ignored what I had written about RS, so I'll put here again:”

I don’t care if you put it 100 times again i ignore bs about nazi serbs in Bosnia, not because i’m ignorant but because there is no such thing as nazi serbs in Bosnia. Shame on you, Gebels.

“The key is "ethnically purified". You say in RS 99% of serbs would vote for independence. You ignore that there has never been anything in Bosnia's 1000 year history called 'RS', it has no ethnic, geographic, historical, cultural or any other validity. 'RS' is merely the area that Karadzic and his fascists armed to the teeth by the dregs of the JNA cut out of Bosnia and expelled the non-Serb population. “

Alija Izetbegovic rejected Carrington-Cutileiro plan in 1992, way before it started to be
really ugly.

So don’t post bs, but again to me, it’s funny how people see others actions but when it comes to them it’s simply goes like: pacific settlement of Albanians in KaM, long history of Albanian presence in KaM , Ceku as war hero with his honour soldiers and I (dimtuc) congratulate him for his democratic policy of slowly convincing Serbs to pack their bags and go on long vacation in Serbia. Sad that you don’t see own nazi’s between your Albanians but you got moral to lecture others. Shame on you, Jamie Shae. ;)

“That is the fundamental difference with Kosova: Kosova is a historic region, which was a federal unit in the former Yugoslavia, “

By the constitution amendments 1974, KaM was still part of Republic of Serbia and i don’t know what part of amendments you don’t understand?

“Yugoslavia was stable for 45 years because Tito was able to hold back the chetnik-inspired old serb nationalist quest to dominate the region. Since that ghost arose and conquered in the late 1980s, that kind of Serbia has obviously been a factor of instability in the region.”

Rubish. Tito’s communist only wanted to cut Serbia’s hands and release some pressure from Albanians nationalists only to control Serbia more sucessfuly because if you control the biggest one you control all and then you can allow yourself to be a dictator. Although, a generous one. ;)

“That's irrelevant, you need to convince the 90% Albanian majority. And I don't like your chance, especially whe you so casually bandy about the neo-Nazi Radicals as one of your allies on this.”

Again, Freud’s projection phenomenon, own neo nazi’s you see in serbian radicals. Take your time, rest a little. ;)