Saturday, April 29, 2006

Turn in Mladic, be positive on Kosovo, NATO tells Serbia

BRUSSELS, April 29, 2006 (AFP) -

NATO urged Serbia Saturday finally to arrest war crimes fugitive Ratko Mladic and find a positive solution for Kosovo to pave the way to acceptance within the North Atlantic Alliance.

"See that Mladic gets to The Hague, and I can tell you that NATO will bring you in very quickly, then you can continue stabilisation and association with the European Union," said NATO Secretary-General Jaap De Hoop Scheffer, speaking at a forum in Brussels on transatlantic relations.

Mladic, a former Bosnian Serb military commander, has remained at large for more than 10 years since being indicted by The Hague war crimes tribunal for his role in Bosnia's 1992-95 war on charges of genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity.

"The only recipe for security and stability is EU and NATO membership," said de Hoop Scheffer."We need Serbia in an active and positive role in the Kosovo negotiation ... My plea is: make it possible for all of us, to make this happen. You can do it happen, please do it quickly."

United States diplomat Richard Holbrooke, architect of the Dayton agreements on Bosnia, said the main issue for Serbia was "to figure out how to protect your long-term future. And to start the process by which Serbia finally takes its role as an important country inside the EU over time."

Holbrooke also foresaw an independent future for Kosovo.

The majority ethnic Albanian province has been run by the UN since Serb forces were forced out by a NATO-led assault in 1999.

"How it happens is of immense importance to the future of Europe," he stressed. "All the rights of the minority people of Kosovo, which means primarily the Serbs, must be respected, their churches, culture, their language.

"This will require an international security presence, and, speaking personally, I hope there will be an American participation in that."

But Serbian Foreign Minister Vuk Draskovic warned against an independent Kosovo.

"The main objective must be security and stability," he said. "There will be no freedom, no security and stability in Europe if we keep some parts of Europe far away from security and stability. We mustn't ignore the issue of Kosovo. The problem is not solved."

Draskovic said he was participating here as "a warning that plans of Kosovo's independence are very very dangerous.

"The boundaries of a province, Kosovo, could not be changed, while borders of an internationally recognized state could be changed. Separatists all over the world are watching now."

71 comments:

arianit said...

Exactly! Why are Serbs being so pessimistic?! That's so unlike new Europe.

Turn in Mladic, turn in Kosova, life is good.

Anonymous said...

arianit. If they turn in Mladic, they will keep Kosovo. Be sure.

Anonymous said...

I don't understand this guy. He is upset at Serbia for not gladly and happily letting go of its Holy Land.

Independence for Kosova said...

You know you are DELUSIONALwhen you believe that shit hole may still have a chance at keeping Republic Kosova.

Keep dreaming Shka!

bg anon said...

That 'shit hole' and the other supposed shit hole nations of the former Yugoslavia were responsible for pumping millions of dollars into Kosovo since the 1970s in order to try to turn Kosovo around economically.

Admittedly the corrupt Communist Party leadership of Kosovo (Serbs, Montenegrians and Albanians) used these funds to line their own pockets but still the money came from Slovenia, Croatia, Vojvodina and Serbia. (If anybody wants to dispute this I do have the statistics).

What is very sad is the way that for so many (young???) people history when talking about Kosovo begins from 1989.

On the Mladic issue. Good riddance. I wish that Mladic was gone yesterday. In fact I wish that Mladic hadnt been born at all.

Draskovic's point on consistency is valid, even if I dont expect supporters of an independent Kosova to respect it. Its the way nation states work. When one lot are granted something then others start to queue up and demand the same.

Independence for Kosova said...

"What is very sad is the way that for so many (young???) people history when talking about Kosovo begins from 1989."

Why don't you look at what happened in history from the '80s, or are you that blind old man?

bg anon said...

'Why don't you look at what happened in history from the '80s, or are you that blind old man? '

If you'd care to make a specific point then I'd be happy to answer it independence for Kosova.

Personally I prefer a starting point of when SFRJ was set up - one of the main reasons is that we (reasonable people, I dont expect unreasonable people to want to agree) can agree on many issues from 1945 without gettting bogged down in ancient history.

Let me point an example out to you (and to anybody else reading this) about how contentious dates are. You say start from 80's.
Well thats a good date as any really.

But why not lets look at Kosovo from 2000? What kind of picture do you think that would paint? I expect you would not be keen to do that - and as a matter of fact I would agree with you, it would be completely unfair to look at Kosovo only from 2000.

But hey lets take the economic issue from the 1980's because, again this isnt a point anybody can find disagreement on since they are facts.

The fact is that from 1981-1985 Kosovo was the highest beneficiary of Yugoslav federal funds (FARDUK). Kosovo gained 42.6 percent of the total budget.
Slovenia, Croatia, Vojvodina and Serbia in that order were net contributors to the fund. The other republics took the rest of FARDUK money.

FARDUK distribution from 1986-1990 was pretty similar with Kosovo as the highest beneficiary. However, in Jan 1990 the Slovenes said they wanted to cut their budget contribution to FARDUK by half.

And the rest as we know is history. I know everybody is obsessed with ethnic explanations of the collapse of Yugoslavia and supposed ancient hatreds but economics, yes economics played a crucial part.

arianit said...

Apparently NATO's Scheffer and EU's Solana disagree with Draskovic's last statement from above. Why do Serbs assume the worst case scenario as the inevitable future? Look at the United States, it threw away its colonial yoke and today it is the most powerful country on Earth.

But even if there is any fallout, why did you, Serbs, throw out the Turks? Didn't you realize that seperatists were watching and would ask the same for themselves? It's kinda the chicken and egg game, isn't it? That's why I prefer to argue with the fact that Serbia attempted genocide in Kosova and thus lost any right to rule the country which it had occupied through military power in the first place.

Serbia developed Kosova?! Please! That is a myth made up to explain the megalo-maniac economic policies of Serb leaders and why Serb economy fell behind Croatia and Slovenia. Though it fits well in the national Serb myth: poor Serbia always sacrificing itself for a greater cause.

bg anon said...

arianit choose to believe what you want but those statistics I quoted are facts.

And dont bother making things up either. As I said the most economically developed Republics in order were Slovenia, Croatia, Vojvodina (reigon) and Serbia.

They contributed funds the FARDUK and Kosovo was the net recepient.

This is clear and I didnt say that Serbia developed Kosovo - that was you own statement.

Like I said people prefer ethnic theories and banging on about myths and want to find things to disagree upon. Sad.

arianit said...

How could have Serbia helped rebuild other areas when it was itself recieving aid from the US? This aid was given on the condition that it is used on such regions. It was the United States that helped design the 1974 constitution to pacify areas such as Kosova, since there was a chance that Yugoslavia would fall apart. Again, Serbia couldn't help anybody because it was a net recipient of aid.

Kosova has wanted a way out before it even got in. Your arguments are colonial classics, they remind me of White Man's Burden.

gujgli said...

to bg anon,

"On the Mladic issue. Good riddance. I wish that Mladic was gone yesterday. In fact I wish that Mladic hadnt been born at all."

Why?
Many Serb families including mine are still alive because of general Mladic. Republic of Srpska survived because of him and his fellow generals so i think there is no need for words like that above.

As always, history will tell the truth about him.

Independence for Kosova said...

bg anon,

You completely avoided the issue, yes in Yugoslavia days Serbia was something, but it is the "shit-hole" today. I don't know the statistics of Yugolavic activities but I know Kosova had no say in anything, and I know for sure it was being robbed. Trepça mines for example. If Kosova was aided then how come it isn't apparent today. If 42% of yugoslavic funds went to Kosova, where at? Maybe funding "supi" which came in handy decades later to practice genocide on poor innocent people. But still, Serbia is right now the shit-hole of Serbia.

Let's look at Kosova after 1999. Most of the roads fixed because of the Chetniks driving tanks, 99% of mines removed (because of Chetniks), 200,000 repaired (because of Chetniks), Mosques repaired (because of Chetniks), etc. Get the point? We pay serbs every month for not paying any type of bills and yet they are they first hoes to bitch about a little electricity shortage, those poor poor bitches. Serbs are the most well treated minority in europe, again those poor poor bitches. They create illegal structures and perform on terrorist activities, like "parallel structures", they don't get arrested. Those poor poor bitches. Yet there are Kosovar families in shelters with no sort of aid, but nohhhhh the serbs they it's not enough, they want moreeee!

We'll see how much Kosova developes in 20 years, will Kosova or Serbia join first EU? I think KOSOVA!! So conclusion, Serbia is the shithole of Europe.

NYoutlawyer said...

Independence, stop using my term "shithole". I applied it to albanian kosovo, and now you have pirated my term. If you want to be insultive, be original at least, but oh, I forgot, you are albanian, nevermind, you have no brain for originality.

I repeat from an ORIGINAL blog, the SHITHOLE kosovo will always be a SHITHOLE as long as albanian muslims decide it's fate.

Iki ca ca miki reku ka ka ceku ka ka iki miki suki diki ceku liki diki mother fuki. I wrote it for you in albanian for easier comprehension. Ciao.

Independence for Kosova said...

I don't remember you using it first. Please point me where. Since you somehow trademarked the term, then from now on I will refer to serbia as "Scum-Manifest". Now shut up.

Ariana said...

hello,
first thing first to this nyoutlawyer.
I just wnat to remind that we are arianit race, second there are still christain albanians alive....eventhough identifying alabanians by realigion I do not see a point , however your lies are over now , and with respect to as muslim just for your info albanians even Israelies helps and likes them. So that i think explains a lot. Everyone knows how we got the msulim religion which in fact serves for your purposes rather then to albanians as a religion. But I am afraid everyone know the truth by now.
read what was said lattely
Richard Hoelbrook siad that :
" with respect to sebian friends but tragedy of Kosovo will end up with independence adding the tragedy of the years 1912 and 1389"
so I think that is for you more then enough. There is so much history between us and you. You took so much adventidge from us but nevertheless never appreciated. we helped you even during second wolrd war and look as price back what we have got form you.
speaking about albanian language as my mother tounge is a very nice language and lucky enough that I know serbian so I use that all the time for swearing and dirty word because I do not think that any other language is desined better rather then serbian language.
Just a friendly reminder for you the genesis of the word serb please explain what does that mean in too you?.Do You know ? did your chetnik predecessors told you about it? I think If I were you I would ashamed.
And I still I can't believe how narrow minded an intelectual serb can be like that and bring itself to this level and use those words ....ciki diki ..that is cigany language so I bet you are not any better . You use your freaking realigion but I think the western world understood the face behind the masks.
So you better update yoursel and open your eyes and see. And don't you think that your polititians are funny. I think they played all cards, and I guess even your girls are too cheap now in the market so those trick are not working anymore.
So I hope you back to Jesus way soon and heal yourself. In case you do not believe it I advise you go to Kosovo in American military base or British or any of them and see why they stand there for.

Anonymous said...

When Serbs run out of arguments they go back to personal attacks.

Balkan Update said...

Here is an interesting fact:
FARDUK fund did indeed exist and it was designed to help Kosovo and Macedonia. It is also true that more than 75% of the funds were diverted to Macedonia at the insistence of Serbs (Initially they were supposed to be divided equally). Serbs politicians objected to funds going to Kosovo because of the disturbances created there, and the diversion of the funds was used as a way of punishment. That’s the story of this "big gift" that never came. Kosovo saw very little of this fund!

ariana said...

well thanks brother. If the serbs chooce personal attach I guess they can go and committ suicide because as i do not like to fight with them nor give a chance for that.It is in their gene anyway, to fight, take and invade and conqueror and never being fedup so I think God never makes mistakes he released their rope as loose as possible because they never stoped asking and compaining and playing as a victime God said ok let go as loose as possible untill they will jerk it up and trap theirself.
so Yo Brate as we used to say Bratsvo - jedinstvo you will harvest what you plant ....it goes around and comes around. So all that bull sh... that you did for Albanians you are getting back and needless to say they make you write the history with your hands in period of your time when you had the highest numbers of intellectualls and oh yeah thinking that those crap world will diggest completely and likely will be 'cradle'for the brains and i am sure yor sick intellectuals thought wow we can't ask for anything better, well albanians are muslim and that is it and theur are illeterate and your smart cookies thought well sky is the limit.
Sorry to disappoint you but no matter what you think and how low you see us albanians are very smart and we are authentic. By having you as a neighbour for so long and still I can distingusish myself from you I did never copy anything form you. Changes are done only for better, and likely there was no such thing in your culture but how to learn to bitch like your girls did and afterwards you washed their feet.
As a albanian who likes the life, peace and freedom.
and I am daughter of an eagle so I like to fly in piece and controll my territory. And I have an eagle eye so I get what I want.

Ariana said...

speaking about Mladic well disgusting however I do not think willeffect Kosovo by all means because desicion are made already so all the talk and thingsis ...so just serbs can diggest the info and make them understand the reality!!!!

gujgli said...

"speaking about Mladic well disgusting however I do not think willeffect Kosovo by all means because desicion are made already so all the talk and thingsis ...so just serbs can diggest the info and make them understand the reality!!!!"

Independence as a reality is reality only to your well paid lobbyst Richard Holbrook, but someone already said it, that's his personal opinion and his not the one who is making decisions. His opinions are like trial balloons, to see how we'll react.

Decision is in hands of great powers so we'll see how Russians will play for us. But if it become independent, that will mean occupation for us so we'll be in obligation to take it back, maybe not now but in future for sure.

That will destabilize the region and i hope the international community will not make decisions that are shortdraft and against international law and one democratic country.

gujgli said...

As i wrote it, Sergei Lavrov repeat it ...;)

Kosovo Independence Would Destabilize the Balkans: Russian Official
By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE, SOFIA, Bulgaria


Independence for Kosovo would destabilize the Balkans, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov warned April 28 after talks with NATO counterparts in the Bulgarian capital Sofia.

”We don’t agree with those trying to persuade us... that there is no alternative to Kosovo independence,” he told reporters.

”That is a fairly dangerous path that could lead to dangerous consequences for the region and create a precedent for other conflict situations,” he said.

Still technically a province of Serbia, Kosovo has been administered by the United Nations since Serb forces were forced out by NATO-led air war in 1999.

The international community hopes to settle Kosovo’s status by the end of this year, and talks have begun between Belgrade and the ethnic Albanian government in Pristina on the territory’s future status.

Lavrov called on Pristina to respect U.N. Security Council “standards” and “to create conditions in Kosovo to guarantee the return of refugees” — Kosovar Serbs forced out of the territory.

Russia has long sided with Serbia in challenging moves to proclaim Kosovo independence.

The foreign minister of Serbia-Montenegro, Vuk Draskovic, said in Paris Wednesday that Kosovar independence would pose a major obstacle to Serbian-EU relations.

”It would seen as a humiliation ... Kosovo is the spiritual cradle of the Serbs,” he said, though he added that Belgrade was willing to offer “internal independence.”

But on April 27, Prime Minister Sali Berisha of neighboring Albania told France’s Le Figaro newspaper that “no plan other than the independence of Kosovo can bring peace and stability.”

Ahmet N Murati said...

Divide and Conquer strategy on SFRJ was successfully applied.

Now what has to be done is Montenegro and Vojvodina and Sandja. Aftermath Serbia could not have the control of balkan.

gujgli many serbian famillies were saved due to the killings and masacres of other than serbian famillies. Are you livin in Medieval time or pre stone age?

Ron said...

I did really like the comment made by gujgli. Mladic is a "HERO".
The more serbs think this way the better for Albanians. It shows the world what kind of people they really are.
Keep up the good work you serbs, Mladic is a hero. He fought for a great couse. Killing inocent people to fulfill Great Serbia's dream. It can't get any better than this.

ariana said...

gujgli: you make me laugh so hard. It is just the way you thinkit is funny.
Russia better play itself ....Ukrahine and Belorussia and then take care about serbia.
So you had Kosovo as a spiritual cardle, what did you do before you had Kosovo you had no spirits cradle ...
I've got a news Kosovo now it is not only that is Kosovo, but it is future of Europe and hope of many countries but Serbia and Russia.
There are more important issues that Europe is cocerned about it rather then Chetnik-serbs dreams,
Issues of different kind which I am not going to talk about it,since you seams to me very narrow minded and plus you are proud of Maldic and all these guys. So please do live on this world that you are and I am sure you be fine.You will be awarded with deserved price.

Anonymous said...

hahaha, this is hillarious - Serbs finally admit it that Kosova will become independent - HOWEVER don't think that they are fools, they are not loosing. Now the plan is for them to conquer the land again. Oh my God, I knew Serbs to be dumb asses but this is way too retarded. Look at their plan:

1. Loose Kosova
2. join the EU
3. Reconquer Kosova
4. Destabilize the international community
5. live forever in peace.

I don't think they actually realize what joining the EU means. E stands for EUROPE btw.

Albanians kicked you out in an attempt to taste freedom... now that they have tasted it... they will kick you out of Europe if need be.

NYoutlawyer said...

albanians couldn't kick a goat out kosovo. they were weak. it was NATO, remember? how brave you muslims have become with all those foreign troops in your backyard. Losers!

Anonymous said...

When referring to history one should use some decency to refer to a time that makes sense analyzing the events after that point. If everyone starts looking at history from the point when they were the greatest power in the region then their consequent views are flawed.

In my mind history starts from the point that we have some information about the people living in a certain region. In the Balkans for example there is evidence of Illyrians' existence since 2000 B.C.E. Since Albanians are the only known descendants of Illyrians, no matter what happened afterward, they should rule the land their ancestors had. This would include most of SE and C Europe. Now due to our generosity, Slavic ppl who should up in the area about 2800 years later, own most of that land and Albanians have never attempted to re-conquer it. However, trying to eliminate the Albanian race out of their remaining pieces of land is not only inhumane but morally unjust.

On the other hand, if we decide to rule out any historic fact, then we are left with the present situation. The present facts are as following:

1. 95% of the population of Kosova is Albanian
2. They want to rule themselves
3. Under international law majority's views are adopted.

Conclusion: Serbia should primarely focus in improving the lives of Serbs in Serbia, and let other countries deal with their own problems.

Peace

Anonymous said...

I am glad you could not refute any other argument I made.

your ignorance keeps on growing when you say that Albanians did not kick serbs out of Kosova. it was because of Albanian's genuity that NATO intervened, due to our lobby that the US supported us and so on and on. As long we get to our end, the means don't matter.

I never said that we kicked you out militarily, which is another source of embarrasment for your country. While your guys had in their belts hundreds of airplanes and thousands of tanks (which you stole from FRY) we had kallashnikovs and a lot of brain, which you obviosuly lack.

bg anon said...

gujgli. I dont think that Mladic conducted war in a civilised manner.

You might reply that war isnt civilised and yes thats true. Its also true that ever single war thats ever taken place there have been attrocities. We could mention Vietnam, Greneda, Korea, Germany (by Germany and against Germany), Russia. There are so many.

So ok let Mladic go to the Hague and use this as his defence. He can argue that he wasnt any worse than some other leaders in history. I would say that he could have been much better. Im not a soldier but I would like to think that I would never tolerate attacking civilians or civilian installations. The siege is Sarajevo is very hard to justify. Even worse, when those conducting the siege never even tried to take the town. Imagine, what is the point of bombing the crap out of that town if its not even a war aim.

Forget about ethnic sides - that was not moral.

I dont know if Mladics conduct saved other Serbs. It could also be the opposite. A hard policy that he used tends to generate hard policy on Serbian civilians too.

None of what I write here above exonarates any of the other groups that took part in the Yugoslav wars - they all comitted war crimes too.

Republika Srpska survived of course but at what cost. Was it worth it? And what about Serbs who lived in the federation? Was the price of an ethnic Serb state worth making all those living outside the ethnic Serb state (in Sarajevo, Mostar etc etc) second class citizens.

Serious questions.

bg anon said...

Independence for Kosova you can hardly call name calling 'an issue' can you?

If you dont know about Yugoslav activities and the federal budget and FARDUK I suggest you get yourself educated on the subject. Otherwise how can talk with any authority about Kosovo 1945 - 1990?
How can you know whether Kosovo was robbed or not. For heavens sake at least examine the statistics (you dont have to believe me but there are books and official documents on the subject) and then make a judgement as to whether you think Kosovo was robbed or not.

But generally I agree ordinary people living in Kosovo didnt see much of the FARDUK funds. In my opinion this was because the corrupt Communist leadership of Kosovo used the funds for their own profit. That Kosovo leadership was of mixed ethnic background. In other words they were all at it Kosovo Serb, Albanian, Montenegrian Communist party officials all involved in corruption together.

If you want an honest opinion (and Im sorry to say Im one of the few who is being totally honest and open with my opinion here at the moment) I will not be sorry to see Kosovo gain independence - from an economic point of view.

You can call Serbia all the names you want but amongst other things I conduct economic analysis. In short this means that I realise that Serbian cant afford Kosovo. Im sorry to say that and wish it wasnt true.

As for your comment about Serbs in Kosovo having better human rights than in the rest of Europe - well that kind of statement I think is as embarassing to moderate Albanians as it is untrue.

Balkan Update of course FARDUK existed. I wouldnt have invented it and Im glad you checked but disapointed you didnt realise it existed until now :( You do realise that the K in FARDUK refers to Kosovo!!! Yes specially created with Kosovo in mind.

The facts you mention with FARDUK do not sound right at all. I have a lot more information on FARDUK (from non Serbian sources) if you are interested.

Where did you get the idea that 75 percent of funds were diverted to Macedonia? There is something you are forgetting here - part of Kosovo's leadership were Serbs. Why would Serbs argue that money should go into Macedonian pockets instead of at their own control. Sources please.

arianit US was sending aid to Serbia directly? WHAT? Do you mean that the US was sending aid to Yugoslavia?

Again - sources please.

How about a little more honesty and less name calling people?

Independence for Kosova said...

"well that kind of statement I think is as embarassing to moderate Albanians as it is untrue."

It is true. You just prefer to think of Kosova as the place where only serbs have hard life, if you forgott I think it was something like up to 50% of Kosovar/Kosovan population live off less then 2 Euros a day. Except for the serbs who get $150 from our taxes and another $150 from serbia. Need I say more?

You got something against name calling, I don't see you or any serb respecting Kosova or it's people, I see no reason to start respecting people who support genocide, and mass killings.

Independence for Kosova said...

I can't find anything about FARDUK or F.A.R.D.U.K!

gujgli said...

Ron,

"I did really like the comment made by gujgli. Mladic is a "HERO".
The more serbs think this way the better for Albanians. It shows the world what kind of people they really are."

You know what? I don't give a damn what world think if the term "world" consist of you, Albanians and Richard Holbrook.

He is hero in terms of leading the army that won the war in Bosnia. Aftermath politics by Milosevic that lost much of the Bosnian land
i don't really care.

"Keep up the good work you serbs, Mladic is a hero. He fought for a great couse. Killing inocent people to fulfill Great Serbia's dream. It can't get any better than this."

Rubish. It was all-out civil war where war crimes were commited on all sides. But, what can i expect from you when i click on your resume and 'Go Kosova Go!' pops up. Mister Del Ponte, i didn't saw you prosecuting that idiot Ceku either, so don't mask yourself and use double standards please.

Independence for Kosova said...

gugjgi, you are truly a sad individual. As neighbors we have to stop this hate and all this Natzi love we got for each other and shape up. The fact that you consider him a hero is very very sad. Mladic's action, and yet you consider him a hero. You know Serb there are something called WAR RULES, but I'm sure serbia or its people haven't heard about.

Serbia is a shame to all!

Bytheway it's this kind of mentality that terrorists and mass murders use. But still I'm not surprised.

Remember Shqiptar, Serbia is the most democratic country in Europe!

gujgli said...

bg anon,

"I dont think that Mladic conducted war in a civilised manner."

Do you think that Ceku conducted war in civilised manner? Izetbegovic? Tudjman? Why Taci is free man? Why the mass murderer Ceku is PM?

Double standards? Why?

"So ok let Mladic go to the Hague and use this as his defence."

I'm ok with that, although i disagree with establishing of Hague tribunal in general. I think Mladic must show up in Hague because of future of all people that he was once defended.

"Im not a soldier but I would like to think that I would never tolerate attacking civilians or civilian installations.
Forget about ethnic sides - that was not moral."

Hmm, moral...That's spelled like: Milica Rakic (3 years old) who died in her toilet from NATO bombs or devasted civil train in Grdelica or mass killed people in Surdulica or children and woman killed in Nis by banned uranium bombs...etc.

Let's not forget innocent people in Iraq and around the world where idiots like Wesley Clark bring up the justice.

So, Americans pressure others not to sign extradict clausule after which every American soldier must appear in international tribunal but we must extradict all our military and political personnel?

They even banned Milosevic on his trial to ask war criminal Clark anything that's related to Kosovo and Metohija aggression?

Thank you, but no thank you. This kind of democratic hypocrisy is too much. Even for our taste.

"I dont know if Mladics conduct saved other Serbs. It could also be the opposite. A hard policy that he used tends to generate hard policy on Serbian civilians too."

Quite contrary, all his actions were in repercussion to Muslim action. Srebrenica is a perfect example.

"Republika Srpska survived of course but at what cost. Was it worth it? "

That is the question for families of 100 000 Serbs who died for Republika Srpska. At least we can can say that they gave life for freedom and future of Serbs in Bosnia. Of course it was worth it? Will you repeat that question with the Kosovo and Metohija? Will you ask it again when it comes to Vojvodina?

"And what about Serbs who lived in the federation? Was the price of an ethnic Serb state worth making all those living outside the ethnic Serb state (in Sarajevo, Mostar etc etc) second class citizens."

They were not second class citizens. They were slaughtered citizens.

Kristian said...

To: bg anon


Farduk! As you mentioned earlier, the country was communist and the ppl in charge were corrupt (all ethnic groups). Supposedly they did spend the money as written on paper. But you have to remember paper work in a communist country is fraudulant at times and not really that reliable. And there is no one to do an audit or question it.

Look at companies in the USA cooking their books. Enron ring a bell!

What about the fact that after the 1980 riots, belgrades policy towards Kosovo/a changed? They wanted Kosovo/a to not prosper. Which cause a large exodus of Kosovans to leave. (all ethnic groups)

As all the regions of the FROY had 5-7% rates of annual growth, Kosovo/a had a negative growth. From 1980 to 1990 it had a growth rate of - 40%! That is a minus there!

Economics solves all problems and your right just from a dollar prospective Serbia should cut its losses. But the money you mention was never directly sent to Kosovo/a to spur economic growth. That money got lost in the shuffle before it reached any of the institutions it was supposed to develop.

Its like saying the US govt giving money to FEMA to help Katrina Victims. Guess what barely any of that money actually reached the victims by the time it got chanelled down the organizations that provided services.

On Paper it seems great but look at the end result. New Orleans is still F-up and the majority of its residents/victims don't have any immediate plans to return. They never saw anything come their way, they just moved on.

Economics is the way to go :)

Peace to everyone!

NYoutlawyer said...

If albania was not a HORRIBLE communist nation under the rule of a HORRIBLE communist tyrrant, we would not be having a Kosovo crisis right now. albanians escaped from albania, it was so bad there, and came to nearby kosovo for shelter. it is that simple. now they want independence from a sovereign nation that gave them aid for decades. are albanian kosovars looking for a different hand to fill their begging?

Ahmet N Murati said...

NYoutlawyer about communistic albania, they were ready for any aggression from ex-Yu or greece.

NYoutlawyer sto se tice komunisticke albanije ona je bila spremna za spaki napad koji bi mogao doci od strane ex-Yu ili grcke.

bg anon said...

Independence for Kosova look harder for FARDUK. The internet age dawned in this part of the world after FARDUK ceased to existed so there isnt much on the net.

But if you go to Pristina library or if you are not in Kosovo, go to a large library in the US and look for official documents. You will find them.

And why do you make things up about how you think I believe. I KNOW that life is hard in Kosovo for people of all ethnic groups. But I also know that it is harder for non Albanians (as I think you also know even if dont want to admit it).

I honestly didnt realise that there are taxes in Kosovo. I was under the impression that VAT still hasnt been imposed.

I find name calling childish and a waste of time that should be spent arguing serious points. Anybody can trade insults but only smart people can argue issues.

And truly your obsession with Serbia next to my tone and arguments, Independence for Kosova, is beginning to sound like an inferiority complex.

bg anon said...

gujgli

I agree they didnt conduct war in a civilised manner either. But dont you see that doesnt make me guilty of double standards. Its the opposite. My standard is to be against war crimes and war criminals.

The double standard is that war crimes committed by one side are somehow acceptible and the other unacceptible.

Yes, its another argument that you mentioned. People like my live in Serbia and we should not be held to ransom by individuals - regardless of how strongly supportive some feel of them. In Serbia it is a minority who feels supportive of Mladic these days. You will see if / when Mladic is arrested / found / killed that there are few protests.

Again you are arguing with the wrong person about morality. Your argument is with those who conduct war by killing civilians (yes NATO as well). I am against killing civilians - therefore you can assume immediately that I am against NATO targetting passenger trains, markets, civilian convoys, civilian television stations, and any other attrocity that you remember.

Again I agree if international justice is applied it must be applied to every person in every nation. There are no free passes if you are American or a 'friend of America'.

I dont know where you got that 100,000 Serbs dead in Bosnia statistic from. Its the first time I've heard it. Unless you are combining the total of all of those Serbs who died in the former Yugoslav war. It would be a stretch to say they all died for Republika Sprska - a very big stretch.

I dont think you heard my point. My point is that there are many Serbs who lived outside todays border of Republica Srpksa in the Bosnian federation. They are paying the price and have the status of second class citizens. The rest are living as refugees. That is some of the of the price paid for Republika Srpska.

bg anon said...

Kristian could you give me an example of how Belgrade did not want Kosovo to prosper after the 1981 nationalist awakening?

I have detailed information on this, on how Republics / provinces voted on political / national issues including FARDUK.

But like I stated (thanks for agreeing) corruption meant that ordinary people in Kosovo didnt see much of that money. Yes the Communist system was corrupt. Party officials benefitted and then party members, the breadcrumbs were tossed to the masses after that.

Its quite likely we have similar books on the subject and a discussion on this may prove helpful to those who are seriously interested in Kosovo rather than those who see this more like a zero sum football match between Serbs and Albanians.

Anonymous said...

Pristina, 2 May 2006 (Kosovapress) Time 12:48

After more then seven years since ending the war, Kosova chief administrator, Soren Jensen Petersen, signed Law for categories came from war, concretely hero families, invalids and veterans of Kosova Liberation Army (KLA).

Anonymous said...

"Its quite likely we have similar books on the subject and a discussion on this may prove helpful to those who are seriously interested in Kosovo rather than those who see this more like a zero sum football match between Serbs and Albanians."

The discussion you are trying to engage is at least 17 years to late. In 1989 serbs put all their eggs in one basket and removed Kosova's autonomy. From that date the game was on. You lost. We all must move on or make a few more wars. The choices are clear. The most important issue left is whethter serbia and Kosova will be in a perpetual war or relative peace.

bg anon said...

Anon the discussion I am trying to engage is never too late.

I think you sense my intentions - ie that it is possible for the people of Kosovo (Serbs, Albanians, Roma and others) to find common issues that they can agree upon.

Instead, sadly as we see here, people are actively trying to find issues that divide them. They try to find excuses to avoid discussing things that unite them.

The choices are anything but clear. The questions should be for example not whether Kosovo should have independence, its what kind of Kosovo its citizens can expect.
What kind of living standard?

What are the prospects for employment and the future?

Will people of all ethnic groups be able to move about without feeling threatened?

These are more important issues than flags, anthems and ancient blood and land theory.

If you are trying to persuade me that monoethnicism, ethnic states, flags, national anthems, jinogistic patriotism is better than multiethnicism, democratic states and human rights, full employment, good education system, good health care system then you will fail.

That is the real question. These are the real issues that divide people.

Anonymous said...

"If you are trying to persuade me that monoethnicism, ethnic states, flags, national anthems, jinogistic patriotism is better than multiethnicism, democratic states and human rights, full employment, good education system, good health care system then you will fail."
It was not the intention or the substance of what I wrote to presuade you on the monoethnic state idea. The whole substance of what you wrote about FARDUK or some other economic discussion is too late. Since we have gone through some conflict which was anything but civilized on the serb part. Yes, I did omitt the albanian part even though you claim we in some way threatened the whole world based on the fact that majority of albanians are muslim. And serbia was somehow trying to defend the world from us. I have heard every excuse in the book why serbs committed the crimes they did in Kosova. But they are just that, excuses. If we are going to talk about the future then let's. But any notion that somehow Kosova will return under serbia's rule is absurd an unfathomable for us albanians. I understand that we need to move from the culture of war which will probably happen as soon as Kosova is a sovereign state. However, serbs must accept responsibilty about what happened in Kosova. As far as economy it will progress between serbia and kosova no matter what anyone says. The deman for goods transcends politics in every culture. And people here who emphasise only the negative will find themselves in minority in no time. If we are going to discuss the future we can discuss them only on equal terms. Let the past stay the past. For us albanians past brings pain and soon pain must go away.But forget we never will.

Anonymous said...

That is just stupid. You know that thousand of Albanians live under Belgrade rule in the Presovo valley. You are just being ignorant.

I think that Kosovo is Serb land and will always be Serb land and nothing can be done about that.

Anonymous said...

What kind of living standard? Very low

What are the prospects for employment and the future? very poor

Will people of all ethnic groups be able to move about without feeling threatened? Ha Ha with terroist mudereer Ceku in charge Serbs will be ghettoized.

Kristian said...

To: bg anon


What do you think of working together on equal terms? As anonymous proposed.


As the last anonymous said "that the lands belong to serbia". Do me one favor and look up the Serbian proposals to the treaty of berlin and afterwards. Particularly look at the maps showing ethnicity. Kosovo and southern serbia were a mix of serbs and albanians all the way up to nis.

On a side note, no one can say with 100% certainty that the lands belonged to Serbia. Nationalism was not created until the last 2 centuries. And tribes ruled over those lands. The lands were inhabited by various populations and tribes. And stats on who was the majority do not exist with 100% certainty. History in the balkans has been written and rewritten to suit the propaganda of those that were in power. In a nutshell all history in the region is BIASED!

To: ny....


The story that albanians left albania and flooded Kosovo/a in a mass exodus are false. Yes there were ppl that left Albania proper during the communist era but not that many as you portray in your comments. Your comments only show your hatred. You're not objective nor unbiased in finding the truth.

Economics again is the answer to everyones ills in the region...

Peace to all!

Anonymous said...

"That is just stupid. You know that thousand of Albanians live under Belgrade rule in the Presovo valley. You are just being ignorant.

I think that Kosovo is Serb land and will always be Serb land and nothing can be done about that."


My point exactly.

NYoutlawyer said...

Here is some scientific evidence of albanian history, written by an albanian.

http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/macedonia/kaplan_english.html


The Albanian Racism Towards its Neighbours is Based on Historical Falsifications
Translated from Macedonian by Zhivko Apostolovski

From the Macedonian daily newspaper Vest - 25.02.2003

Vitomir Dolinski: An Interview with the Persecuted Albanian Academic Professor Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich

VD: - You are regarded as a unique, albanian Mandela, but also as a political prisoner-record holder on the Balkan. For the insufficiently informed, at the beginning, tell us briefly about this?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - In former Yugoslavia I was sentenced two years strict imprisonment, allegedly for propaganda against the socialism and the “brotherhood and unity”. After I served the punishment to the last day in the jail Idrizovo, wishing to escape to the Soviet Union I got stuck in Albania with which the USSR exactly those days severed its diplomatic relations. After the ten-year internment I was arrested by the albanian authorities and sentenced 43 years of a most monstrous imprisonment, again allegedly for antigovernment propaganda, in possession of some revolver without license, preparing to escape and for insulting the investigator. Thus, in total I am sentenced 45 years, of which 37 for antigovernment propaganda, with which I think that I am the most heavily sentenced political prisoner on the Balkan and maybe I am a unique world record holder. Actually, if it wasn’t for the (political) changes in Albania I would probably have still been in jail today. To this sentence needs to be added the severed marriage in Yugoslavia, in which fortunately I didn’t have any children and also the second marriage, in Albania, in which I had two children. During the whole time of my incarceration, not only that I wasn’t allowed to see my children, but I didn’t even know if they were alive. No one was allowed to visit me, or to give me a piece of bread. Not even the other prisoners. Those who did that were punished and the poet Gani Shkudra, who came to see me, not only that they didn’t allow him to see me, but in front of the jail, on the spot, they arrested him and sentenced him with 10 years imprisonment, allegedly for political propaganda. The only transgression attributed to him in the accusation is recorded as: “he had gone to the jail Burel to see the public enemy Kaplan Resuli and brought him bread”. While I was languishing in the infamous jail Burel, ten times they skinned me alive, literally, wanting from me to abandon my yugoslavian (montenegrin) citizenship, the yugoslavian (montenegrin) nationality, my ideals, even my children. They were forcing me to declare myself an Albanian, not only as citizen, but in nationality (ethnicity). Several times they attempted to liquidate me, even after I was released from jail, three times they have attempted to assassinate me – twice in Tirana and once in Geneva. The Albanians themselves, not only my friends, but even the others who were antagonistic towards me, while I was in my jail cells, pronounced me an albanian Mandela. Even my most open adversary, the albanian writer Ismail Kadare, those days, the beginning of the nineties, in his attempts to befriend the european circles and Amnesty International who were involved in my freeing, did not shirk from naming me a martyr and a hero of Albania.

VD: - Before we turn towards that period and to Your specific relationship with the most famous, but undoubtedly the most controversial person of the albanian academy, as well, Ismail Kadare, lets return to the most important phases of your creative activities which led to Your wider literary and scientific affirmation?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - In Dubrovnik in 1952 I published the poem “Bojana” in which I openly named Yugoslavia and Albania, Golgotha, in which the people struggle and suffer. I was instantly called on the phone by my “countryman” Milovan Gjilas who then threatened me that he will squeeze my head so hard that instead of singing I would begin to wail. And it turned out thus. I hear in Yugoslavia he is regarded as the No.1 dissident. If truly there is no other person, then I know that I was that at least a little bit before him.

VD: - Your first jail sentence, unfortunately, occurred to You in Macedonia, where for some time in that period You worked as an educator?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Yes, I was a tutor in Tetovo when they arrested me. As it can be seen from the charges, in Macedonia I had done nothing wrong. I was accused that, allegedly, I had been involved in an antigovernment propaganda in Montenegro. And because I was and am a montenegrin citizen, the court proceedings should have been there, in my birth town of Ulcinj. The reason for my prosecution in Tetovo was that there I didn’t have any relatives and UDBa (yugoslavian state security), which knew that I am absolutely innocent, was afraid that my prosecution among my Ulcinj people could provoke some unwanted problems. For that reason it ordered my prosecution in Tetovo, behind closed doors. Although I am not from Tetovo, the people of this town, especially my students knew me well, as a professor and as a writer. Along the streets of the town from the court to the jail I was greeted with an open support from many of them and most likely for many of them it will be interesting to know that the key UDBa witness against me was then their collaborator, now allegedly a big fighter for the albanian cause, Adem Demaçi. The state prosecutor in his concluding talk, accusing me as “agens spiritus” of the yugoslavian youth against the regime and seeking to be charged as such, stated that I had been and hoped that I will continue to be in future, as well, a “constructive citizen” of Yugoslavia. It is interesting that Fatos Nano (albanian socialist premier) after my release from jail, here in Geneva described me as a “constructive citizen” of Albania, asking me to return there, in Tirana.

VD: - Your first more significant life’s disappointment, You said, implanted in You the idea to leave for the Soviet Union, but fate wanted again to play with you in a brutal fashion and “retain” You many years in the albanian jail Burel?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - True, that was some time after my completion of the jail sentence in Idrizovo. Burel was not a jail, but a place of horror. While in Idrizovo they would say “You are not here for us to fatten you up, but to count your bones” in Burel it was: “This place is called Burel, where one can get in, but can not get out”.

VD: - The numerous works which You wrote here most likely helped You to strengthen your spirit and, eventually, to survive. Actually, exactly here is created your most famous work, the novel “Treason”?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - From approximately 200,000 pages written during those thirty years, half of them I succeeded in transferring out of jail and to have them here, in Geneva. The other part was taken from me by the authorities and I have no idea what has happened with them. The novel “Treason”, otherwise, the Albanians themselves proclaimed it as a masterpiece of the albanian literature. One of the most eminent albanian critics, Prof. Tajar Zavaljani, even described it as the only worthy work published in Albania after World War II. That type of reception for the novel in Albania and amongst the albanian diaspora perturbed Enver Hoxha (Hodzha) who was attempting to establish his likeminded relative Ismail Kadare as the greatest albanian literary. That is why all of a sudden they “discovered” that I had not written the novel, attempting even to physically eliminate me, but it had been the work of Adem Demaçi (Demaky), for whom they were hoping that, in the meantime, he would perish in the yugoslavian jails. Since Demaçi got out of jail alive and I also survived, now, via the printed media, they have widened a campaign against me, unseen in the history of mankind, which, imagine, the novel had been written for me by UDBa, in order to establish myself with it in Albania and thus usurp the government from Enver.

VD: - Thus far twice, in similar context, You mentioned Kadare and I would like to remind You of 1991 when Amnesty International, as well, engages in the requests for Your release from jail and, absurdly, the one who attempted to block it was none other, but Kadare. How, actually, could that be explained?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Kadare is catapulted in the West by Ramiz Alija and the widow of Enver Hoxha, with a well planned mission. At that time it was only one of his missions – to diminish my credibility amongst the albanian public and the diaspora, fearing that I may unmask them, spoiling their future plans. For that reason, not only in private, as was the case with Adem Demaçi, but also publicly, at meetings and via the printed media he barked against me and would accuse me, as they were instructing him from Tirana. Kadare and Demaçi are the main conspirators in of the most monstrous demonstrations in the history of mankind, when they spurred the albanian professors and students at Prishtina university to demonstrate in February 1991 against my release from jail.

VD: - On the subject “Kadare” You have up till now written much, to which special attention in the albanian public, but also in the european community have attracted Your books “The true face of Ismail Kadare” and “The lies do not alter the truth”. When, actually, began Your rivalry and what is, as You have mentioned, his well planned mission?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - In these books, actually, with documents and with facts, but also with his own self confessions, I have proven that he is catapulted in the West as an agent of Sigurimi (albanian state security), because he was that from always. As a principal ideolog of Enver, with secret interpretations on our works he was “passing judgment” for our maltreatments, internments and arrests. Actually, this was publicly stated, on Albanian Radio-Television in 1996 by the former head of Sigurimi, Zylfiar Ramizi, verifying that Kadare was in their service under the pseudonym General. He was a provocateur trained by Sigurimi to accuse anyone who, according to him, stood in his way, as he did that with me. And why? Because academic professor Dimitar Suterilji, in his principal paper which he read out at the second Congress of Albanian Writers, placed my name and novel before his. At one plenum of the Union in 1966 I openly criticised him, which enraged him, as he was not used to being criticised. Much later, after my release from jail, a major from Sigurimi involved in my arrest openly declared that, although totally innocent, they had arrested me because they had received a secret 12-page long accusation against me and my activities, exactly from Kadare. In the meantime, he totally put his pen and talent in the service of his benefactor Enver whose political speeches he was transforming into poems and novels. I don’t know if you are aware of the fact that Kadare published a complimentary poem lauding Enver’s “patriotic” dog, which somewhere at the border catches and pulls apart some unfortunate Albanian, only because the poor soul attempted to escape from Enver’s paradise. These are only a few pieces of evidence about the moral profile of the “great” literary and “certain” Nobel prize winner Ismail Kadare, whose main preoccupation today is to poison and deceive the West with the albanian historical falsifications about the alleged famous illiryan-albanian past and culture, which, what absurdity, had suffered multi-centuries harm from the activities of its surrounding barbaric “slavic” peoples.

VD: - This is, I think, an opportune moment to begin our discussion for Your third, certainly an important segment, as well, of Your writings – the scientific-research work. You have published numerous works from the sphere of the albanian historiography and linguistics, which brought You significant prestige, scientific titles and also an honorary membership in the Albanian Science Academy. When did actually begin Your scientific interest for the Albanology?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Already in 1995 at the university of Skopje it became clear to me that there will not be peace on the Balkan until the albanian question is clarified. For that reason I switched from the law faculty to the albanological studies and here, contrary to what was being said and written not only by the albanian, but also by our, yugoslavian scholars, contrary to what is being taught not only in the albanian language schools (in Albania, as well as in Macedonia), but also in the schools of “south-slavic” languages, I discovered that not only the Albanians are not autochthonous people, but they are also not related in any way to the Pelasgians or the Illyrians. Understandably, not one of the professors in albanology has said this to me. They still continued with the tale that allegedly Albanians are autochthonous pelasgo-illyrian descendants. I discovered that by chance, studying the albanian language, which, all agree, is of the type SATEM. According to that global division of languages, researching the illyrian language I discovered that it is of the type KENTUM. The most elementary logic was saying to me that one SATEM language can not be a direct descendant, not even a kind of derivative of some KENTUM language, without a change of its substrate. Since the albanian language does not have any changes in its substrate, that means that the Albanians can’t be, under any circumstance, genealogical descendants of the Illyrians. Later I discovered this, as well, in the works of the world renown professors and scholars Paul, Hirt, Vaigand, Tomashek, Georgiev, Puscariu and many others, who with numerous scholarly arguments, linguistic and historical, have proven that the Albanians not only do not have anything in common with the Illyrians, not only that they are not autochthonous at any place in the Balkan, but they are not even autochthonous in the territories of modern day Albania. Vaigand for example has formulated 12 arguments. To all of those I’ve added another five. Unfortunately, these scientists are not being mentioned in (the study) Albanology, nor in Albania, nor are they mentioned in Yugoslavia, or in Macedonia, because the albanian professors consciously hide the truth about the origins of the Albanians and, instead of it (the truth), to their pupils and students they serve up the lies about their autochthony and illyrian origin. Via those lies they poison the whole nation. This is not done accidentally, but with the aim to incite the Albanians against the neighbouring nations, thus, hooking them on the “fishing line” of some invented, wide ethnic territories, to use them as cannon fodder for the interests of some criminalised leaders and the international Capital.

The primary motive that inspired me to oppose the albanian pseudo science about their illyrian origin was the truth, the love for the truth, my special inclination towards it, but second and equally as important motive was the fact that, watching the Albanians being breast-fed with chauvinism and racism, are being encouraged to fight their neighbouring peoples (nations), I was hoping that if the truth is explained to them, they will move away from the tales, legends and myths about their autochthony and illyromania, thus ceasing with their inexcusable and baseless hatred towards their neighbours.

VD: - How did the albanian public receive Your albanological research and discoveries?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Once even Enver Hoxha was forced to admit that the albanian science lacks scientific objectivity. The albanian poet Mimoza Erebara in the Science Academy asked them directly what was the situation with my scientific discoveries. They had told her: “We know that very well even before Kaplan, but now is not the time for all of that to be told” Since in the publication “YLBERI” (comes out since 1993, in Geneva) and especially through my albanological collection THE ILLYRIANS AND THE ALBANIANS I demonstrated in written form my points of view, the albanian academic Vincents Golleti, in the printed media stated: “The stances of Kaplan Boorish about the albanological problems, especially on the problem of the origin of the Albanians, need to be greeted most warmly, while the studies which he publishes in relation with those problems should be propagated throughout the whole of the scholarly world”. After him followed the albanian scholar Dr. Adrian Qosi who in the middle of Tirana openly opposed the hypothesis about the illyrian origin of the Albanians. With me agreed, via the printed media, several other younger scholars of whom I would especially mention Fatos Ljubonja, Prof. Adrian Vebiu and others. I can say that today appeared a group of new albanian scholars who do not agree with the false myths and courageously accept the scientific truth. I am proud that I lead this group and that they took up from me the necessary scholarly courage. Because, believe me, that is not easy at all, as the extreme albanian nationalists, chauvinists and racists led by Ismail Kadare, through the most severe forms of chicanery and satanising are attempting to silence us at any cost. The mentioned Dr Adrian Klosi when he stated that the hypothesis for the illyrian origin of the Albanians is unfounded, added: “But it is better not to talk about that because they will declare us anti Albanians”. And they did.

VD: - Since when actually dates the oldest evidence for the existence of the Albanians and the albanian language?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - The oldest evidenced text in an albanian language is “Formula ë paleximit” (Formula for communion), translated from Latin in 8-11-1462 by the Montenegrin Pavle Angjelich, whom the Albanians have albanised with the name Pal Engylli. The first book in albanian is “Meshari” (The Book of Thoughts), a manual for religious sermons, dates from 1555 and is written by the Croatian Ivan Buzuk and published in Montenegro. And, understandably, they albanise him with the name Gjon Buzuku. For your information, the first primer in albanian, after the proclamation of the albanian independence is a work of “Slavs” and Vlachs. Dositej Obradovich is the first in history who opens a school in albanian language, while it was exactly Serbia which was the first state to recognise independent Albania. The Macedonians have a significant input in the development of the albanian culture. For example, one of the oldest publishers in Albania is the Macedonian Petar Budi (1566-1622) who has published three books in albanian, and also a Macedonian is Jovan Kukuzel, whom the Albanians have claimed as their own and have albanised with the name Jan Kukuzeli, although it is known that when he was born in Drach, XI century, here there still is not even one Albanian. Let me remind you also of Grigor Prlichev (1830-1893) who for some time is a teacher in Tirana and published the wonderful poem “Skenderbeg”. Undeniable is the fact that always at the forefront of all of their positive processes the Albanians had namely non Albanians. Lets mention, as well, at this opportune time only Georgi Kastriot – Skenderbeg, of an undeniable “slavic” ancestry, Naim Frasheri (a Vlach, an albanian national poet) or Fan Noli (a Greek, whose real name is Theofanos Mavromatis), Petar Bogdan, a Serb, or Ismail Kemali, a Turk who was proclaiming the albanian independence in 1912. As you can see, the foundations of the albanian culture and statehood are laid by non Albanians, from which a large number are “Slavs”, but that does not stand in the way of the albanian nationalists, or “marxists-leninists”, all the same, to thump their chests and declare that they have achieved everything by themselves and that the other people (nations), especially the “Slavs” have only been their enemies.

VD: - Undeniable is the fact that in Albania the toponyms are, say, without exception “slavic”. To what is that owed?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - On the territory of today’s Albania, as has already been confirmed by the most distinguished world scholars, from whom I have already mentioned some, first settled the Slavs. In 548 A.D. they enter also in Durrachium (Drach, Durrls). The Albanians come via Transylvania (Romania) and Bulgaria much later, IX-X century. In the meantime, understandably, the Slavs have already named all mountains, valleys, rivers, towns and villages, and built some new ones, giving them their own names. When the Albanians arrive on the Balkan and today’s Albania, there is nothing else they can do except to take those toponyms. A large part of Albania is flooded with serbian and macedonian toponyms. Just as an example I wish to mention the towns of Pogradec, Korça (Korcha), Çorovoda (Chorovoda), Berat, Bozigrad, Leskovik, Voskopoja, Kuzova, Kelcira, Bels and others.

VD: - In the macedonian community little is known that more than 90 percent of the lexical fund of the albanian language are words taken up from other languages. You especially have analysed the subject of the “slavisms” in the albanian language. It would be interesting some more to be said about this?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - For the first time I graduated in Skopje, exactly with the theme “Slavisms in the albanian language”. The second diploma, as well, at the university of Tirana, I defended with a linguistic theme. Especially in “The Dictionary of the Albanian Language in Ulcinj” I have elaborated the etymology of all words. Actually, it can be supposed that if the Turks did not come to the Balkans, the albanian language in not more than 100-200 years would have been completely “slavicised”. The serbian, macedonian and bulgarian languages have penetrated so much into the albanian language that they have flooded not only the lexicon, but they have displaced its phonetics, morphology and syntax. Besides the significant cultural prestige of these languages compared to the albanian, this is also due to the significant albanisation of not a small number of Serbs, Macedonians and Montenegrins, especially the ones who were previously islamised. As it is known, the Albanians have a strongly developed power of assimilation. That a good part of them by origin is Serbs, Macedonians or Montenegrins, is witnessed by their patrons, surnames, but many of them even today speak their “slavic” language. In Albania there are whole regions along the border, especially towards Macedonia, settled with a compact “slavic” population, which is even more numerous, lets say, than the Albanians in Macedonia.

VD: - Lets talk a little also about the numerous ethnonyms which from the albanian side, often baselessly, are forced as synonyms. How come so many ethnic names for the Albanians?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Boorish: - That, as well, witnesses the ethnogenesis of the Albanians after their arrival on the Balkan and populating the northern albanian mountains. I have already mentioned about the Illyrians, but the second ethnonym to which they pretend, the Dardanians, it is known, were not Illyrians, but Thracians. Even if they (Dardanians) had been Illyrians, again they haven’t any connection with the Albanians, because that kind of connection neither have the Illyrians themselves. Science has proven that very clearly. In respect of the Albanoi(an)s, they are a celtic tribe which on the territory of Albania, in the region Mat, arrives in the IV century BC. Today’s Albanians, actually, only much, much later take over their name, as have done today’s Bulgarians from the non slavic Bulgars of Asparuh, or today’s French, from the old germanic Franks, deforming the old celtic name Arlbn/Arlbr. Arbanasi is the other name with which our ancestors the “Slavs” are naming them during the Middle Ages. Arnauts is the name which the Turks use for them. It should be known that not all Arnauts were at the same time Albanians, as well. Because the Arnauts (Albanians) got a reputation as good hired hands in the turkish empire, the other mercenaries were also called Arnauts. That means that there were Serbs, Montenegrins and Macedonians ARNAUTS, because some of them are also islamised, thus as muslims they serve under the turkish flag not only as common soldiers, but also as arnauts (mercenaries). Skiptar (or Shiptar and deformed Shiftar, all originate from the albanian appellative Shqipltar) is the current national name of the Albanians, spread amongst them in the XVII-XIX century, influenced by the name Osman, as the Turks were naming themselves. Namely, osman in turkish is “eagle”, while in albanian it is “shquipe”. Thus the Albanians of muslim faith wanted to relate themselves with the muslims Turks, which was also the aim of the Porte, even of the original platform of the Prizren League, which originally is not albanian at all, but pan islamic. And if its primary aims succeeded, most probably the Albanians would not exist today because all of them in the meantime would have become Turks.

VD: - Here as well, is the known division Ghegs-Toscs from which originates the known language question which, it seems, still has not been overcome by the Albanians?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - The language question in Albania is not settled even today. Although formally (and by force) Enver Hoxha established as a common, official language the Tosc dialect (until then it was the Gheg dialect), the Ghegs have not given up. They still continue to speak and write in their dialect, although they are persecuted and maltreated because of it. When in 1965 in Albania I published the novel “Treason” in the Gheg dialect the Albanians of northern Albania openly requested the language of this book to be declared as the literary and official language of Albania. That too was one of the reasons for my satanisation which still continues. You should know that the difference between the Tosc and the Gheg dialects is much bigger than the differences between some “slavic” languages, for example the macedonian and the serbian. From another side, more Albanians, about two thirds, speak in Gheg, which is lexically richer, purer and also has much greater expressional opportunities. With the enforcement of the Tosc dialect, which was of a pure political nature (motive), a crime has been perpetrated against the Albanians and their culture.

VD: - One of the fallacies (delusions), unfortunately, it seems somehow silently accepted even outside of Albania is the so called monolithic nature of the albanian population in the Republic of Albania in which allegedly live 97-98% ethnic Albanians, for which You have already said something previously. What is, according to You, the reality in that respect in Albania?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - When Albania is proclaimed and recognised as an independent nation (1912-1913) its population numbered 700,000 of which hardly 50% were Albanians, while the other half was made up of Vlachs (around 20%), “Slavs” (Macedonians, Serbs, Montenegrins, around 15%),Greeks (around5%) and others (Turks, Roms, Cherkesians, Italians, Jews and others, around 10%). With the passing of time, mostly by force, with denial of all national rights, including the right to speak in their own languages at home, or to carry their own national family names, they are to a certain extent assimilated. But, even besides the such forced albanisation, in Albania even today over 30% of the population speaks a non albanian language and retains its non albanian national identity, although they are registered as Albanians, as they are not permitted to declare differently. The non albanian origins of the population of Albania is also evident from their surnames Bello, Blushi, Bogdani, Buda, Budi, Dida, Dobraci, Dragovoja, Dragusha, Haveri(ch), Kapisuzi(ch), Mexi, Millani, Milloshi, Mojsiu, Muzaka, Najdeni, Peku, Prela, Ruka, Sillil, Shkura, Shundi, Ziu and many others.

VD: - In Your research You have also paid special attention to the ethnic expansion of the Albanians in the past 2-3 centuries towards its neighbouring (serbian, macedonian, greek and others) regions, for which now, the last several decades, to begin to proclaim exactly them as their “ethnic territories” in which they allegedly lived from eternity?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - This truly is absurd and, in any case it is good that there remain numerous proofs for their undeniable expansion, which I have integrally collected and published in my study “The origins of the Albanians in Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro and Greece”. One needs to be objective and tell the truth, not because of the truth itself, but because it will contribute toward overcoming of the many problems on the Balkan. That the Albanians only in the past couple of centuries have expanded admitted publicly, via the printed media, the most eminent contemporary albanian scientist, academic professor Elrem Cabej (Tsabej), who, forced by the numerous arguments, was unable, but to conclude that today’s territories on which the Albanians live are not “a zone of RESTRICTION”, but “a zone of EXPANSION”. And not only he! That also is verified in the “HISTORIA Ë SHQIPERISË” itself, compiled by the albanian scientists themselves.

VD: - Recently from Tirana were launched some “evidences” about an existence of 14 million Albanians. Amongst the numerous “Albanians” who had indebted the world civilisation was included, as well, Alexander of Macedonia!?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - I’ve read that, as well. The albanian academic, Prof. Dr Skender Rizaj once even in his “scientific” works stated that, also all Serbs, Montenegrins, Macedonians, Bosnians and Herzegovians are, in reality, “slavicised” Albanians. By that method we should “admit” that they are not only 14, but possibly even 140 millions. I have already published a study about the “scientific” work “The Illyrians spoke albanian – The Albanians speak illyrian” published by Preloc Margiljaj. I would like to present for this suitable moment only a few short quotes which can also be found in other albanian historical-linguistic “experts”: “The Albanians are one of the oldest nations (peoples) in Europe” (page 438) “it is clear that Crete is the first fireplace of culture and civilisation in the aegean region and in Europe. Crete from the forgotten times of the past was settled with the pelasgian, rather the illyrian or albanian people, thus in Crete ruled the albanian language, which in other words, is the starting point and the first source of the european culture and civilisation”. (page296). Starting from this, this albanian “scientist” wants the albanian language to be taught in all schools around the world as a compulsory language because, according to him, without knowing that language it would not be possible to comprehend the world culture(!?). In respect of Alexander of Macedonia, even Enver Hoxha has written that he is an Albanian, expressing that also in one discussion with the indian ambassador in Tirana, as if personally he, Enver, had sent him to India, even as an ambassador to establish friendly relations between these two countries and peoples. These undoubtedly racist yearnings of the Albanians are certainly the result of their economic and cultural poverty, of their backwardness and late development in comparison with the other nations, amongst which are those of its neighbours, I would say of their frustration because of all of that.

VD: - Do You believe, regardless, in the possibility that the young, unburdened scientists and politicians in Albania will accept the reality and they, abandoning the greater albanian dreams, to give their own contribution towards the development in real good-neighbourly relations?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - I do believe! I have already cited several names of such young scientists. I can also give you names of young politicians unburdened of the greater albanian yearnings. But they still don’t have the power for that, except their pens and good intentions, with which they can’t act freely because the albanian print media is strictly censured by the greateralbanians, and the streets of the cities, unfortunately, are still patrolled by gangsters who, in the service of the social-fascist band, are ready to hit anyone with a brick on the head or with a bullet in the forehead!

VD: - For ten years, as a political emigrant, You have been living in Geneva, Switzerland. Do you have an impression that the so called democratic Europe and the West, generally, understand our Balkan situations?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Democratic Europe, I’m afraid, at least in respect of us, does not exist at all. The antidemocratic one, on the other hand, hand never understood them, nor want to understand our Balkan difficulties. Europe was and still is in the service of The Capital. Its “democracy” is only an expression of that Capital. It uses our Balkan peoples and situations for penetration (expansion) and for ruling the world, for its own battle against the true, real democracy and its carriers.

VD: - Concordant with Your rich life experience, after all that in the past period happened on the Balkan, and which, sadly, culminated with several bloody wars, are You of the opinion that all of that, simply, had to happen?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - No! Absolutely not! All of that could and can, even needs to be solved without blood. Let the Albanians prove that even Moscow is theirs, thus give them even it. But until they prove that, they should not be given even one stone from our fatherlands, not only to prevent them from desecrating it, but in order to prevent them from smashing their own heads with it.

VD: - To conclude, I believe it would be interesting to hear Your prediction how the things could be developing in the near future?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - The Americans have reached their aim – on the Balkan they have installed their military bases. Let us hope that they will not support the terrorism and to use the Albanians as cannon fodder. And the Albanians, certainly, in the meantime will wake up and will not allow either the Americans or whoever else to use them as such. For that, understandably, with self criticism, all of us need to assist them. I hope that for this will also contribute this interview, for which I most sincerely thank you, not as a foreigner, but as your brother, because I have always thought of Skopje as my second birth town and Macedonia as my second, true fatherland. I use this opportunity to send my greetings to my school friends from the Skopje gymnasium “J. B. Tito”, also the personnel from the macedonian embassies in Geneva and Tirana with whom I have met many times and keep wonderful memories from the discussions with them, especially with the recent (former) ambassador in Albania, Risto Nikovski. Understandably, special greetings to my friends and “comrades” from KPD “Idrizovo”.

NYoutlawyer said...

Iki miki ceku suki U.S. diki. Wow, albaniqi luv da suki U.S. diki. Maki albaniqi feeli soo like suki all diki. Yumm, albaniqi suki any diki. Put hand out and open mouth, suki all diki that give moneyiki. Albaniqi suki all diki mama fukiqi all diki suki.

Your way of life in a nutshell.

bg anon said...

anon you are inferring that by my mentioning FARDUK the idea is to try to persuade Albanians to remain in Yugoslavia (or Serbia). At least thats what I think you mean by being too late.

Thats not my intention. Im just here to remind people of the facts of our (yes) JOINT history which was not all bad. Life in Kosovo existed before 1989, before Milosevic and it may not have been perfect but it was not some one sided story that we are being served by some people with an agenda to make Serbs look like genocidal maniacs.

I dont think its too late to remind people of that period, no. That period was (imperfect, yes) but multiethnic. And people were generally not allowed to go round killing one another on an ethnic basis. That period of peace was much longer than the period of 1989 to the present day.

And please why do you put words into my mouth. Where did I ever say that the whole world was threatened by Albanian muslums?
I dont understand why you accuse somebody innocent of saying things he has not. And it worries me like hell because if I was a Serb living in Kosovo today, no doubt you would think the same thing about me - which is the sort of attitude which would pressure me to leave my home. There is a name for that which we both know.

I cant speak for Serbia but we can see positive signs. For example those poor relatives of those killed (who are used here by some at this blog like goals in a football or soccer match much to my disgust) finally have some peace.

The disgraceful espisode of reburied Kosovo Albanian bodies in Serbia - the bodies have been / are being returned. Better still finally those responsible are being punished. You think I want scum like those who murdered those civilians walking the same streets as me and my family? No, I want them in jail. This is a feeling we must share.

I also know that it isnt easy in Kosovo Albanian communities where similar people are walking the streets and ordinary Albanians are afraid of them. That is our joint interest. Those people endanger all of us - particularly in peacetime. They dont stop killing in peace. Those supposed 'war heros' continue killing until the forces of law / rule of democracy can arrest and imprison them. Sadly, if they metamorphasise into politicians, some think they will never have to answer for their crimes.

Look at what happened in Serbia to Zoran Djindjic. Look at the people who killed the elected Prime Minister of Serbia. Is it any surprise that these were many of the same people who fought in the wars against Croats, Albanians and so on? Dont think that cant happen in Kosovo as well. I havent seen one yet but sometime soon a visionary Kosovo Albanian politician will appear and dont be surprised if some Kosovo Albanian warlord will want to kill him. It could be one of the very same warlords that Kosovo Albanians currently see as a hero.

I want the culture of war in Kosovo to end. Again normal people will agree on this. But I have to say Im not optimistic. I say its not independence, flags or anthems that will change things. Frankly I wonder at the lack of success of the internationals in Kosovo so far. And I also wonder how much worse the anti Serb violence would have been if they had not been there 2 years ago. That last point cant makes the Kosovo Albanian argument that 'as soon as independence is granted then things will be fine' look optimistic at best. At worst the view looks hopelessly misguided.

Yes I know Albanians wont accept a return to 1974 or even Republic status but there has to be a way to guarantee the safety of the people of Kosovo. No, I dont have a good solution to propose. :(

Kristian as you can see I very much believe in working together. Although lets not abandon reality for a fantasy world. Its easy for me to sit here in my Belgrade flat advocating peace. My family hasnt been killed or been ethnically cleansed.

Kristian IMO opinion you are wasting time on arguing ownership of Kosovo. By doing so you are accepting the premise that land does belong to one ethnic group or another. Land existed long before nation states did which as Im sure you know are a relatively recent invention. Land doesnt really belong to anybody and actually I think we all know that. We all die sooner or later and land remains.

One must appreciate Serbian and Albanian history in Kosovo but 'this land is ours, not yours' game is pure childishness and almost always accompanied by some ancient historical ethnic roots theory by some quasi expert who wants to prove that his 'tribe' was there first.

ariana said...

nyoutlawer: haha you Moron
"If albania was not a HORRIBLE communist nation under the rule of a HORRIBLE communist tyrrant, we would not be having a Kosovo crisis right now. albanians escaped from albania, it was so bad there, and came to nearby kosovo for shelter. it is that simple. now they want independence from a sovereign nation that gave them aid for decades. are albanian kosovars looking for a different hand to fill nottheir begging?"

Wow hahaha:-) discovery of the 21st centure why don't compete for Nobel Price for this discovery hahaha,...in your dreams. Everyone know the truth but I can't believe you are such a big layer and on top of everything you hear yourself ONLY and feed up your brains likely only with your lies.
I am sorry but nobody will by this lies anymore and this scik opinoins of your.
And histori does exsist before you and me and it is writen already so why don't you update yourself and forget those Chetnik lies man.
I am so disapointed that after all this what happend so far and you still do not understand and never get civilized at this maner.
Well I stick to the saying " crow do not make doves" so likely 'some things never change eh'.
And you have to understand once and for ever that we are autochthon in our land in Ballkan.
It is so unfortunate to have a neighbor like you. And it is so said for entire society that these crimals exist.
Turn on the God's way and open your heart and brain and have mercy and respect for all innocent people that died.In the end we are all human and we have to have respect for each other and as well live in peace and except the reality and quit living on bad dreams.

ariana said...

nyoutlawyer:Moron better
How about Velika Serbia -Greater Serbia ..with and without Kosovo what do you think is it growing more...haha or perhaps Blooming lattely !!!

For the sake of being strong and beloved form everyone See if you can keep Montegro close or else ...you know what I mean.
I guess they realised too that you are such a pain on the but and likely only troubles being together with you. Go and ask any Slovenian person about serb they hate the fact that once we have been all together.If I were you I would be ashamed to call myself as a SERB and you know very well what is the genesis of the word serb so .... any more comments on this?

NYoutlawyer said...

I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about ariana. Your English is horrible. Go to the web address below and learn the truth about who you are and how you came to the balkans.

http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/macedonia/kaplan_english.html

NYoutlawyer said...

Remember, a pig can become independent but, it's still a pig.

Balkan Update said...

Dude, why are you posting the same article in every discussion? I already told in another discussion that we are dealing here with nut case. Are you nuts too?

ariana said...

nylawyer:
hahaha you are going nuts no doubt.

I do not buy these lies anyway and nobody does.
I do not care what does cite a crazy person that has been in jail for decades.

Wow this is one article,you have thousands of articles and you excersised many propagandas for many... how many years and they proven to be lies. So ok one more from guys like you ...Big deal!

Anonymous said...

bg anon is a damn communist on top of being a Serb, dude your life must really suck.

to the person suggesting that Serb should kill themselves, that is a terrible idea. . . I rather them live and see an Independent Albanian-ran Kosovo.

nyoutlawyer you can go kill yourself because you are so boring and predictable

bg anon said...

To the anonymous guy who thinks seeking compromise is Communist philosophy.

You obviously havent heard of Goli Otok have you?

Is there anybody with a more intelligent comment to make?

Guess its not easy to debate with somebody who is actually taking the debate further than name calling is it?

Kristian said...

To: bg anon

Kristian IMO opinion you are wasting time on arguing ownership of Kosovo.



Hold on a sec, now your putting words into my mouth. I wasn't arguing ownership at all. None of us were there and no one can say with 100% certainty who owned the lands. Like I said there were a mixture of ppl in the region. And the maps presented by the Serbian govt (Berlin Treaty) prove the mixture. How accurate are those maps? That is something we can spend hours debating. But its irrelavant.

During the last part of the 19th century and the early 20th, the land belonged to the Turks for over 500 yrs. So guess what! Neither one of our ppl were the owners. And if you look at maps of the past they are incorrect. Internationally recognized borders were non exixtent during those times. Borders shifted just like the wind does.

Its like the Greeks claim that Alexander the Great was a Greek. Which he wasn't. He was Macedonian! He did conquer the Greeks. And bc of his great triumphs they claimed him as theirs.

Now look at macedonians today! Are they the same ppl as those of Alexanders time. Not at all. Ppl have been mixed over the centuries. Anyone doubt that? If you do then you don't live in reality.

All BALKAN HISTORY IS BIASED AND NOT AT ALL OBJECTIVE!

Starting with Greek history and others, balkan history is generalized. Who ever knew how to write determined the history of the area. Greece today was not greece of the past. Serbians/slavs didn't live in that region before the 6/7 century. Albanians-- no one is sure about them. Ppl(specifically historians) just generalize!





You are right about working together. I don't know you well here on this blog. But the ones that do know me, know that I have a serbian neighbor to the left of my house and a croatian neighbor right in front of my house. If I step out of my front door and walk straight I will enter my croation neighbors house.

During the whole Yugo mess, my serb neighbor was in disbelief and still is. The FROY that he group in was gone. And he's still upset how the ppl only blame one person (Milo) when there are a lot of other ppl that supported that regime. He always says, "same ppl with a different political name." also "You can coat shit with whatever you like but its still shit!" He's really upset with the politicians there. In his opinion the majority suck! And by knowing him for over 25+ yrs I'm inclined to believe his point of view. Not bc it suits me, but the balkans are still communistic with the attitude my way or the highway. Which is wrong! And I'm not talking about any particular group but the whole region.

Ppl here in the USA get along well and don't have a problem. In the Balkans, that is a different matter all in itself. I don't know NY... but he doesn't get out much and interact with ppl. Maybe he'll realize that we're not that different.

PPL should work together and secure a future for all. Assasinations in the Balkans are common. And its hard for the ppl to be open minded. And ppl have a hard time of letting things go. Things happened, no one can go back to correct them, but you can correct what happens from this day forth so that it never happens again.

Peace to everyone.....

Kristian

bg anon said...

Kristian you are arguing that point you said 'no one can say with 100 percent certainty who owned the lands'.

In other words you are accepting the premise that somebody does own the land. Otherwise your response would be for example that land cannot be owned so the point on who claims what is irrelevant.

Thus I dont agree that the Turks owned the land either. At one time they controlled it militarily. But like I say land cant really ever be owned.

Historians generalise, exaggerate, work for governments / interest groups, lie, are economical with the truth. I agree. My best friend is a historian and he would tell you this himself.

Kristian do you have an explanation as to why so many pepole who live in the west - particularly the US but also in Europe has such a jaudiced and one sided, bitter view of events in the Balkans.

Look at it this way. 25 percent of people living in Serbia have regular access to the internet. In Kosovo its half that.

I cant sense any participants who live in Serbia / MG and I think the same is true for Albanians.

Why is it then that it takes somebody like me who actually chooses to live in the region to try to talk sense into those who are living thousands of miles away?

And who are all these people who are deliberately trying to poison relations between Serbs and Albanians to an even worse degree than they already are?

gujgli said...

to bg anon

"The double standard is that war crimes committed by one side are somehow acceptible and the other unacceptible."

The double standard is when you pressure one country to extradict all political and military personnel and then on the other side put the war criminals like Ceku and Haradinaj to PM positions like they are saints. It's simply injustice and i can't agree on that whether they put that ultimatum on us regarding entry to EU or not.

Also, i'm against any war crimes, but declaration about it can't solve problems. The reality is that this way of opressure and one side approach will never solve this kind of problems on Balkan today or tommorow nor will help the families of victims to find truth and bury their loved ones.

"In Serbia it is a minority who feels supportive of Mladic these days. You will see if / when Mladic is arrested / found / killed that there are few protests."

Milosevic was extradicted with small protests in Belgrade but on his funeral later came 500 000 people so i think that you can't measure support in that way.

Then, you got opinion poll that in Serbia 55% oppose extradictions, (we talked about that subject in march posts), and that number is realistic because when you look that only radicals got like 38% support in Serbia and they are pretty against it i think that numbers tells you something.

Mladic has support in opinion polls, he got behind himself the most powerful party in Serbia, he got support of orthodox leaders and most important he got support in military inteligence staff and thats the reason why he is always one step ahead.

Unfortunately all this support comes from one main reason and that is, blinded and one sided approach to the horror that we lived in former Yugoslavia where mistakes of international comunity came as a big price. As long as you come with that kind of attitude, our criminal is not criminal, your criminal is big criminal it'll be worse. Sorry, but this is the mentality of Serbs throughout the history and this is not something new. One of the parallels can be Gavrilo Princip case and aftermath ultimatum.

"My point is that there are many Serbs who lived outside todays border of Republica Srpksa in the Bosnian federation. They are paying the price and have the status of second class citizens. The rest are living as refugees. That is some of the of the price paid for Republika Srpska."

That was minimum price that we paid for basic survival of other Serbs and survival of Srpska as a Republic. So, speaking of their rights in Federacija when whole nation is in jeopardy to completely disappear it's really absurd.

Anyway, i exaggerated the number of casualties, there are no exact numbers but in general about 40 000 Serbs died only in Bosnia.

Ahmet N Murati said...

bg anon don't bother how much peoples in Kosova use internet

check only you national television does the RTS transmits any footage of common peoples about their problems and what do they think about Kosova.

RTK does goes to the Serbian villages and asks local residents to speak freely about in what conditions are they living.

If you were not never in Kosova after the war it is not my fault that you don't have clear picture of Kosova since the RTS doesn't allows clear infos from Kosova. One example is about electricity that the serbian governement is telling allways that only the serbian minority on Kosova are facing power cuts. Well if they payed in time their debts to KEK then they wouldn't be matter of consideration to face power cuts.

What's more important is that www.b92.net is most respectful TV station in Serbia because even that is located and owned by Serbians that do represent different points of views not only the government one.

gujgli said...

"One example is about electricity that the serbian governement is telling allways that only the serbian minority on Kosova are facing power cuts. Well if they payed in time their debts to KEK then they wouldn't be matter of consideration to face power cuts."

First, how can they pay their debts when they got no jobs and your government can't provide any, but when it's about burning the orthodox churches like in 2004 then you can't stop the fun.

Second, Serbian Electrical Engineering Company offered KEK free 50 milion KWs in february but KEK refused. They feared if they accept it, the Albanians will say 'look, Serbia still run the show, and Kosovo and Metohija can't live without Serbia'. Aside my opinion that above is truth, someone must help people there.

Speaking of KEK and their weird policy, i must remind everyone that chief of KEK Joe Trucler arrested in 2002 for donation fraud in amount of 4 milion euros. And then people like ahmet say, 'they must pay their bills'. Bravoo, what a democracy!

"What's more important is that www.b92.net is most respectful TV station in Serbia because even that is located and owned by Serbians that do represent different points of views not only the government one."

TV B92 is not most respectful TV station, i' don't know who lied you about it. They represent the views of non government organizations, because one of them (Media development loan fund - New York) is majority owner. They got 48%, the rest is secret, but sources say it's in hands of people who officially run it (Veran Matic etc).

They are still the only one TV station that's regularly accepting money donations from US. Someone would ask why? Do the math yourself.

bg anon said...

gujgui

I'm aware what double standards are. Im telling you I dont practice them, so blame for double standards can not be laid in my direction.

But as you suspect I agree - and in fact now that people know my position on double standards they can suspect or almost know my position(s) in advance. They are based on a common principle applying to all sides. As I was saying I agree all war criminals should be brought to book and this has not been done.

But I will also say this. Due to the fact that Serbs were the most numerous population living in the former Yugoslavia it also stands to reason that they will also have the most war criminals (and also the most moderates). Therefore some Serbs and Mg's who are aruging that should be an equal amount of Serbs, Croats and Bosnians, Albanians at the Hague are not being logical. But yes sadly there are a number of Kosovo Albanian warlords who should be brought to the Hague. I wont say here that they are guilty before they are judged but they should face trial.

Mind you I will now completely contradict myself with this. There are a disproportionate amount of Montenegrians at the Hague. Seriously there are so many of them are Montenegrian its unbelievable and most of them hid in Serbia.

500,000 people most certainly did not attend the Milosevic funeral. Unlike most who speculate on the figures I was there and there was between 80,000 to 120,000. But if you added the people who visited Pozarevac too it could move up to 250,000. But heres something that might confuse those that dont know the culture. Would you care to guess how many of those who attended the Milosevic funeral also attended Tito's funeral in 1980? Oh yeah many of the same schizophrenic people. Imagine, Tito a Yugoslav, brotherhood, unity etc and then Milosevic who came to the helm of a grand proud country and left the country in a pathetic and pitiful state with reduced borders and enemies greedily eyeing the scraps.

And I tell you something else, I bet that many of those who attended Rugova's funeral also attended Tito's. Same s//t different package but I know the culture and people here. Even when they behave in a contradictory way.

I dont agree that its absurd to talk about the rights of Serbs living in the Federation. Unless you are living in such a situation you dont have the right to call that absurd.

But I do appreciate you correcting your figure for killed Serbs in Bosnia.

bg anon said...

ahmet actually I have cable so I dont need to rely on RTS and as you can see I speak very good English so its likely I have access to more information than you think.

You also dont even know what line of work Im in. And you assume that I havent been in Kosovo. I wonder why, could that be because you dont think I would have freedom of movement in Kosovo. You would be right. I am limited to visiting Mitrovica and Pristina.

My German collegue isnt though and he's been throughout Kosovo and has given me on the ground reports on whats happening in the Serbian and Roma ghettos. Its a miserable situation. I know its not that much better in poorer Albanian communities either.

If you truly do know about the electricity situation in Kosovo then you would know that in fact most of Kosovo's citizens still dont pay electricity bills. I dont like to politicize this issue but it seems very stupid indeed to do something that will be interpreted as ethnic. And KEK and the internationals knew that damn well.

Cut a few people off as example to get others to pay (including Albanians) but entire Serbian communities. What kind of stupidity is that?

Yes, B92 is a pretty good media station. Unfortunately it is going in the wrong direction - commercialisation, American trash soaps etc. It used to have excellent documentaries, exploring the past, investigative journalism.
I welcome the fact that some Albanians recognise B92 as a good example. I hope there is something similar for Kosovo Albanians.

But gujgli is right on the ownership issue. 48 percent (minority share) is owned by the media development fund. The rest is onwed on the sort of socialist principle of the old days - those who work there longest have shares. Veran M, Sasa M, etc etc.

Fox recently expressed an interest in buying the station. I hope they dont or they will kill it.

gujgli the funds from the US and other NGO's have now dried up. This is the main reason for the increasing commercialisation of B92. Trust me I know whats going on there.

Also you need to make a distinction between B92 and the NGO view. Back in 2002 there was a big bust up between B92, Vreme and other media on one side and the NGO's on the other. The NGO's were unhappy that B92 was not radical enough. You can read about this on the Helsink site which has it all translated into English. I think its in the Facing the past section.
It makes interesting reading I promise you.

gujgli said...

bg anon,

"As I was saying I agree all war criminals should be brought to book and this has not been done."

But you ignoring the question again. Why they are not in Hague already? You call for Mladic surrender but how come we got some deadlines and Ceku got travels abroad to discuss his Greater Albania Nazi project?

The same goes for Haradinaj and similar murderers.

"500,000 people most certainly did not attend the Milosevic funeral. Unlike most who speculate on the figures I was there and there was between 80,000 to 120,000. But if you added the people who visited Pozarevac too it could move up to 250,000."

Sorry, but i strongly disagree with this. There were at least 500 000 people and i don't count the people who came through the Dedinje Memorial. Then numbers go up to one milion or two. Anyway, if it was 250 000 as you say, again it proves my point that number on protest against extradiction don't reflect people opinion which is strongly against any more extradictions. Sorry, but that's a fact. And i'm not a radical or socialist so you can't apply here that i'm biased.

"But heres something that might confuse those that dont know the culture. Would you care to guess how many of those who attended the Milosevic funeral also attended Tito's funeral in 1980? Oh yeah many of the same schizophrenic people. Imagine, Tito a Yugoslav, brotherhood, unity etc and then Milosevic who came to the helm of a grand proud country and left the country in a pathetic and pitiful state with reduced borders and enemies greedily eyeing the scraps."

I don't know why you calling them schizophrenic.

You are forgetting something very important. People in former Yugoslavia lived very good. And for them Tito was symbol of that good life, so attending his funeral at that time was nothing weird, on the contary it was honour and obligation to the man they loved. And they got reasons. Was he a Croat or Yugoslav, they didn't care, he was their son.

As for Milosevic, he proved that he was guilty for Yugoslavia horror equally as some idiots in Clinton administration, equally as Tudjman, and Izetbegovic and lesser than people recognized as terrorists Ceku and Haradinaj. But God will judge them, if not we.

"I dont agree that its absurd to talk about the rights of Serbs living in the Federation. Unless you are living in such a situation you dont have the right to call that absurd."

Again, you're making general phrases and not giving any solutions. What was the Serbs choice in Bosnia when the civil war started? To put head down to be cut off only to remind international community that genocid will ocur? Thank you, we saw it already 1945 in Jasenovac. Of course they will fight, and they fought bravely. That nations can't live together in peace, it's simply fact, i got whole family there, so again, it's really funny when you trying to remind of some civil rights in Federacija when Sulejman Tihic is trying to erase Republika Sprska.

Man, i would like that you go with me in Banjaluka sometimes, then you'll get a real picture. Too much B92, can make some damage...;)

"gujgli the funds from the US and other NGO's have now dried up. This is the main reason for the increasing commercialisation of B92. Trust me I know whats going on there."

If Veran Matic lied RRA, i lie you.
He said two weeks ago that NGO's from US still give donations to B92.

And he specifically said that NGO's because of their ownership got big influence on their programme. Of course, they thought that the trial will make Milosevic a butcher. But what happened is that B92 like Hague court helped Milosevic to regain his popularity like in old days. I think they regretting almost for a few years now. ;)

bg anon said...

Why suspected war criminals are not in the Hague is not my problem. Ratko Mladic is my problem since people think he's in Serbia. But if you insist again, yes double standards, yes Serbia (Serbs) have been punished more than they deserve but hell are you telling me they dont deserve some punishment? Is that what you are saying?

gujgli you have a generalised view of B92 that comes through lack of knowledge.

B92 could have easily cut off the Miloseivc trial. RTS did didnt it?

The experts on B92 that came like Tapuskovic, Toma Fila, lots of them with a variety of opinions. Thats good.

Again I point you in the direction of the Helsinki site in Serbia if you want to read about the confrontation between the NGO's in Serbia and the media. It is interesting.

Then there are NGO's such as VERITAS.

I can see that you prefer a black and white viewpoint (it easier on a person) but the problem is that the world isnt black and white.

I have been to Banja Luka and I've also been to Sarajevo. Perhaps it is you that should visit Sarajevo and Belgrade and tell Serbian refugees in Belgrade or the Serbs of Sarajevo that you think that republika sprksa was a price worth paying.

I prefer multiculturalism to monoculturalism in Kosovo and in Bosnia.

gujgli said...

"Why suspected war criminals are not in the Hague is not my problem.
Ratko Mladic is my problem since people think he's in Serbia.
But if you insist again, yes double standards, yes Serbia (Serbs) have been punished more than they deserve but hell are you telling me they dont deserve some punishment? Is that what you are saying?"

Sorry but topics like Mladic, B92, Bosnia etc, are showing that i'm standing on one side of the river, you on the other. Without bridge. Simply, we're too distant and i see that my answers are not helping at all.

I hope we will find another subjects where we can discuss with better understanding of each others views.

bg anon said...

gujgli

Really I dont see myself as standing one side of the river at all.

In fact if you want to use that kind of analogy I see myself as standing in the river trying to persuade people either side of me to not be afraid of crossing the bridge.

But yes there will be some topics that you and I agree upon.