By Matthew Robinson
VIENNA (Reuters) - Serbs and Kosovo Albanians meet in Vienna on Monday for the first round of direct negotiations to decide the fate of Serbia's disputed southern province, with almost all signs pointing to independence.
Two eight-member delegations of mid-level politicians and advisers come together in the 18th century Palais Daun-Kinsky under the chairmanship of Austria's Albert Rohan, deputy to United Nations envoy Martti Ahtisaari.
The talks, delayed a month by the death of president Ibrahim Rugova, is the first since Ahtisaari was appointed in November to broker a deal on Kosovo, sacred land to Serbs but 90-percent populated by Albanians who demand independence.
Diplomats say independence is almost certain, despite Serbia's refusal to consider such an outcome. A deal would close a chapter in one of Europe's most pressing diplomatic conundrums.
The province of two million people has been run by the United Nations since 1999, when NATO bombing drove out Serb forces accused of atrocities against ethnic Albanian civilians in a two-year war with separatist rebels.
Neither side has given much ground since then.
Trying to break the ice, the meeting will skirt the hot issue of status and focus on how to devolve power to the 100,000 remaining Serbs, ghettoised and targeted for revenge. Western diplomats have stressed independence hinges on Albanians offering Kosovo's minorities a viable future.
"The majority population here in Kosovo has a right to expect that their aspirations will be met when status is decided," Kosovo's U.N. governor, Soren Jessen-Petersen, said on Sunday. "But it is equally important that the majority is seen to be committed ... on minority issues."
The Contact Group of major powers setting policy on Kosovo says it wants a deal on "final status" within the year.
Belgrade insists independence is unthinkable. Rich in Orthodox religious heritage, Kosovo holds almost mythic status for Serbs, central to their identity for 1,000 years.
But practically self-governing since 1999, Albanians say independence is non-negotiable after a decade of Serb repression in the 1990s.
The Contact Group has urged Belgrade "to bear in mind that the settlement needs to be acceptable to the people of Kosovo."
Western diplomats say this means independence, conditional on major concessions to Serbs and guaranteed by an EU-led supervisory body and extended NATO peacekeeping mandate.
(Additional reporting by Shaban Buza in Pristina)
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18 comments:
Matthew, pray tell us since when do we round off 700 to 1000!
ivan why must you talk?
"Can you please find me a source prior to 19th centruy which states that siptari are decendants of illrians?"
Can you give me 100 sources that proves that shkijet aren't scums?
"Hey we dont make ridiculous claims that alexander the Great was Serbian. You seem to be convinced that he is a siptar."
He is!!
Also WIKIPEDIA is not a good source for political arguments. No one has to prove to you anything, either except reality or be ignorant.
~Anonymous
hey ivan,
if you use the word "siptari" again, i will track you down and kick your ass.
I second that. I'll smoke you out from your chetnik cave.
Hi Ivan, I'm a student at the University of Lund, Sweden. Took me some time..but I managed, I have tracked down a source for you. It is prior to the 1900th century and a Nordic source and old one and we could both agree that the geographical distance to Kosova should be a sign of neutrality. (Yes I use the term used by the majority of the Kosova inhabitants, you may criticize this) I have been reading the arguments you have put in this discussion site, the reason for that is simply that I’m writing a paper on this and the site is good in my quest to achieve objectivity.
Here comes the extract, (its so old, its in old Swedish, but I will translated it and if you do not believe my translation then you can seek to find someone that can verify my source). You could find someone that knows Swedish and your language.
Swedish:
"Albaneser (sjelfva nämna de sig Skipetarer, bergsboar) och äro
ättlingar af de gamla illyriska bergfolken. De äro ett
särdeles kraftigt, tappert och krigiskt folk, för öfrigt
kända för sin trolöshet och sin grymma vildhet emot fiender.
Hvarje albanes är så att säga född soldat, älskar krigets
yrke och tager derför gerna sold i orientens härar. " - Nordisk familjebok 1776
English:
“Albanians, (they call themselves Skipetar, mountain-people) and are descendants of the old Illyrian mountain people. They are a powerful, brave and warlike people, know for the ruthlessness against their enemies. Every Albanian is to say born a soldier, loves the occupation of war and therefore gladly takes arm in foreign armies” (Nordic Familybook 1776).
This was found at the old university library, since the university is from 1666 it actually has a great deal about the Illyrians and the Slav exodus to the Balkans.
Hi Ivan, I'm a student at the University of Lund, Sweden. Took me some time..but I managed, I have tracked down a source for you. It is prior to the 1900th century and a Nordic source and old one and we could both agree that the geographical distance to Kosova should be a sign of neutrality. (Yes I use the term used by the majority of the Kosova inhabitants, you may criticize this) I have been reading the arguments you have put in this discussion site, the reason for that is simply that I’m writing a paper on this and the site is good in my quest to achieve objectivity.
Here comes the extract, (its so old, its in old Swedish, but I will translated it and if you do not believe my translation then you can seek to find someone that can verify my source). You could find someone that knows Swedish and your language.
Swedish:
"Albaneser (sjelfva nämna de sig Skipetarer, bergsboar) och äro
ättlingar af de gamla illyriska bergfolken. De äro ett
särdeles kraftigt, tappert och krigiskt folk, för öfrigt
kända för sin trolöshet och sin grymma vildhet emot fiender.
Hvarje albanes är så att säga född soldat, älskar krigets
yrke och tager derför gerna sold i orientens härar. " - Nordisk familjebok 1776
English:
“Albanians, (they call themselves Skipetar, mountain-people) and are descendants of the old Illyrian mountain people. They are a powerful, brave and warlike people, know for the ruthlessness against their enemies. Every Albanian is to say born a soldier, loves the occupation of war and therefore gladly takes arm in foreign armies” (Nordic Familybook 1776).
This was found at the old university library, since the university is from 1666 it actually has a great deal about the Illyrians and the Slav exodus to the Balkans.
You dont like "them" that much..I can understand that from what I have been reading, to access that library is not easy, I dont have access to it, the head of Östeuropeisk historia (east-European History) has access..dont worry..its been safe for hundreds of years, its not going anywhere. =)
In the risk of pissing you off; I have found sources stating that serbs stepped on some parts of Kosova soil as back as 500 years, of course in the University its is no doubt on who was first, that is not the question to be debated about. The question is: Pro et contra method of debating the final status without speaking in terms of finders-keepers!
Have a good evening.
"Dardania dont worry we will not track anybody down. We are civilized, and we fight with words, unlike you siptars who use advantage and kill old people so you could steal their money."
Coming from a scum like you...
You are embarrasing yourself, don't you have to start another "civilized" war towards Montenegro or Vojvodina, I wouldn't want you to be late for the mass killings.
tung shka (bye scum)
~Anonymous
To Ivan:
I thank you, I will continue to study, and because my goal in life is to be educated enough that I see facts as they are, analyze them correctly and make up my opinion accordingly.
You asked for a source, I gave you one, now clearly you haven’t studied what kind of source that is; it’s actually a much respected form of Encyclopaedia, one that has lasted and survived the test of time.
Still I understand you, you clearly didn't have anything constructive to provide me with but still needed to utter yourself, which is your democratic right and I respect that.
As I have said before the discussion of the ancestors of Albanians and Serbs are clear to the University that I'm currently studying in and probably most others and I can assure you that the assessments made are not based on one fact or source of facts.
You seem to seek facts but still you do exactly what you ask the apparently Albanian visitors not to do, that is speak without facts.
If you could state for me why this old, respected, profound and sometimes amazing piece of work is faulty then I would be much grateful, even more grateful if you could follow your own advice and speak with proven facts! I will sincerely pass this to the University.
Yours Truly
/Göran Gustafsson
Student
Lunds Universitet
Statsvetenskapliga Institutionen.
"An encyclopaedic description does not give an academic proof of something. What Ivan wanted was an academic text (prior to 19th century) which provides theories and proofs of the connection between Illyrians and Albanians. This Encyclopaedia, no matter how old it is, gives just a description, but not a proof."
It seems that I was unclear in my description of the work, its academic work behind the book that is why it makes it such an important work, that’s why its home is in the academic premises of one of the most respected and oldest universities in Sweden. Of course there is proof, the question is how others are supposed to work to assure you that it’s academic and firm scientifically. Because of copyright issues I was not allowed to publish the full background of the statement on how the connection lies between the Albanians of this time and the Illyrians.
Of course you are right in questioning my source, you should do this in every matter, to criticize constructively as you did is to learn! And with the short part of the findings I provided there is left a lot of room for questioning.
Would you publish an academic work for me without breaking the copyrights, if there is any such in the country you currently reside? The work is to state the 1000 year old SERBIAN heritage in Kosova (you know the reasons for me using the term Kosova). This would be very helpful to me, I have sincerely been trying to find sources of this in two of the Swedish Universities that I have access to, and this did sadly enough not turn any results, same thing happened when I tried to find connection between the Dardans and the Kosovars of our time.
There is of course a need of definition, what is Serb, many argued I should look for connection of slav heritage in Kosova not merely Serb, that is, its argued I should broaden my perspective, same thing goes for the Albanians, should I search for Arberian, Illyrian or Dardanian connections. And what’s the difference between Kosovars and Albanians?
With respect
/Göran Gustafsson
Student
Lunds Universitet
Statsvetenskapliga Institutionen.
Ivan and Cvijus,
YOu are looking for a source before 19th century about Albanians.
Have you ever heard about Marin Barleti?
Type his name on google and you will find a lot of info, which mind you, might not please you and someone else like you.
Marin Barleti (Latin: Marinus Barletius, Italian: Marino Barlezio; ca 1450, Shkodër - 1512 or 1513, probably Rome). Barleti was a humanist of Albanian descent, the first and greatest Albanian historian, and a Catholic priest.
When Barleti lived in Shkodër he was a scholar and a clergyman. In 1474 the Turks besieged Shkodër. Barleti participated in the defense of the town both in the first siege in 1474 and the second time in 1478. When Shkodër fell to the Ottomans he escaped to Italy where he became a profound connoisseur of history, classical literature and the Latin language. In Venice he wrote the "History of Skanderberg (Historia de vita et rebus gestis Scanderbegi) (1508-1511), "The Siege of Shkodër" (De obsidione Scodransi, Venice, 1504) and "A Brief History of Lives of Popes and Emperors" (Compendium vitarum ponticum et imperatorum, Venice, 1555).
His most well-known work is the biography of the Albanian national hero Skanderbeg, Historia de vita et gestis Scanderbegi Epirotarum principis (The story of life and deeds of Skanderbeg, the prince of Epirotes). It was printed in Rome between 1506 and 1510, probably between 1508 and 1510. The book rapidly spread in several languages and eventually was translated into Latin and Portuguese four times 1582 and German seven times 1533. It is still the foundation of Skanderbeg studies, and also established the Skanderbeg cult that was important for the formation of the Albanian national self-consciousness. This book is considered as an Albanian cultural treasure and today is in Biblioteka Kombetare in Tirana, Albania.
Barleti's last work was the collection of popes and emperors, Compendium vitarum Summorum Pontificium usque ad Marcellum II Imperatorumque Romanorum (Compendium of biographies of Popes and Roman emperors until Marcellus II).
The old library of Shkodër and a publishing house have been named after Marin Barleti.
Marin Barleti (Latin: Marinus Barletius, Italian: Marino Barlezio; ca 1450, Shkodër - 1512 or 1513, probably Rome). Barleti was a humanist of Albanian descent, the first and greatest Albanian historian, and a Catholic priest.
When Barleti lived in Shkodër he was a scholar and a clergyman. In 1474 the Turks besieged Shkodër. Barleti participated in the defense of the town both in the first siege in 1474 and the second time in 1478. When Shkodër fell to the Ottomans he escaped to Italy where he became a profound connoisseur of history, classical literature and the Latin language. In Venice he wrote the "History of Skanderberg (Historia de vita et rebus gestis Scanderbegi) (1508-1511), "The Siege of Shkodër" (De obsidione Scodransi, Venice, 1504) and "A Brief History of Lives of Popes and Emperors" (Compendium vitarum ponticum et imperatorum, Venice, 1555).
His most well-known work is the biography of the Albanian national hero Skanderbeg, Historia de vita et gestis Scanderbegi Epirotarum principis (The story of life and deeds of Skanderbeg, the prince of Epirotes). It was printed in Rome between 1506 and 1510, probably between 1508 and 1510. The book rapidly spread in several languages and eventually was translated into Latin and Portuguese four times 1582 and German seven times 1533. It is still the foundation of Skanderbeg studies, and also established the Skanderbeg cult that was important for the formation of the Albanian national self-consciousness. This book is considered as an Albanian cultural treasure and today is in Biblioteka Kombetare in Tirana, Albania.
Barleti's last work was the collection of popes and emperors, Compendium vitarum Summorum Pontificium usque ad Marcellum II Imperatorumque Romanorum (Compendium of biographies of Popes and Roman emperors until Marcellus II).
The old library of Shkodër and a publishing house have been named after Marin Barleti.
Marin Barleti (Latin: Marinus Barletius, Italian: Marino Barlezio; ca 1450, Shkodër - 1512 or 1513, probably Rome). Barleti was a humanist of Albanian descent, the first and greatest Albanian historian, and a Catholic priest.
When Barleti lived in Shkodër he was a scholar and a clergyman. In 1474 the Turks besieged Shkodër. Barleti participated in the defense of the town both in the first siege in 1474 and the second time in 1478. When Shkodër fell to the Ottomans he escaped to Italy where he became a profound connoisseur of history, classical literature and the Latin language. In Venice he wrote the "History of Skanderberg (Historia de vita et rebus gestis Scanderbegi) (1508-1511), "The Siege of Shkodër" (De obsidione Scodransi, Venice, 1504) and "A Brief History of Lives of Popes and Emperors" (Compendium vitarum ponticum et imperatorum, Venice, 1555).
His most well-known work is the biography of the Albanian national hero Skanderbeg, Historia de vita et gestis Scanderbegi Epirotarum principis (The story of life and deeds of Skanderbeg, the prince of Epirotes). It was printed in Rome between 1506 and 1510, probably between 1508 and 1510. The book rapidly spread in several languages and eventually was translated into Latin and Portuguese four times 1582 and German seven times 1533. It is still the foundation of Skanderbeg studies, and also established the Skanderbeg cult that was important for the formation of the Albanian national self-consciousness. This book is considered as an Albanian cultural treasure and today is in Biblioteka Kombetare in Tirana, Albania.
Barleti's last work was the collection of popes and emperors, Compendium vitarum Summorum Pontificium usque ad Marcellum II Imperatorumque Romanorum (Compendium of biographies of Popes and Roman emperors until Marcellus II).
The old library of Shkodër and a publishing house have been named after Marin Barleti.
Dear Ivan,
If this is not proof for you, than my dear friend you have a problem with your ignorance.
Unfortunately I can't do anything with your ignorance It is up to you to educate yourself.
Good luck in your long and bumpy road of educating yourself.
It's right in the title you moron. Prince of Epirotes. Who were Epirotes?
Encarta http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761561564_10/Albania.html
VII History
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A Early History
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Present-day Albanians probably descended from Illyrian people who lived in the southern Balkans long before Greeks, Romans, and Slavs migrated to the region. During the 7th and 6th centuries bc, the Greeks established several colonies along the Albanian coast, including Epidamnus (present-day Durrës) and Apollonia (near present-day Vlorë). By the 3rd century bc the colonies began to decline and eventually disappeared. As the Greeks left, the small Illyrian groups that predated them evolved into more complex political units, including federations and kingdoms. The most important of these kingdoms flourished between the 5th and 2nd centuries bc.
At the same time, Rome was developing on the Italian peninsula, across the Adriatic Sea from Illyria. The Romans saw Illyria as a bridgehead for eastern conquests, and in 229 bc, Rome crossed the Adriatic and attacked. By 168 bc Romans had established effective control over Illyria and renamed it the province of Illyricum. Rome ruled the region for the next six centuries, but the Illyrians resisted assimilation and their distinctive culture and language survived. Nonetheless, Illyrians gained significant influence in the Roman armed forces, and several Illyrians became Roman emperors, including Aurelian (ad 270-275), Diocletian (284-305), and Constantine the Great (306-337). Christianity was felt increasingly in Illyricum by the middle of the 1st century ad, and in 58, Saint Paul placed an apostle in charge of Epidamnus. Seats for bishops were later created in Apollonia and Scodra (present-day Shkodër).
From Britannica:
The Illyrians
The origins of the Albanian people are not definitely known, but data drawn from history and from linguistic, archaeological, and anthropological studies have led to the conclusion that Albanians are the direct descendants of the ancient Illyrians and that the latter were natives of the lands they inhabited. Similarly, the Albanian language derives from the language of the Illyrians, the transition from Illyrian to Albanian apparently occurring between the 4th and 6th centuries AD. (Some scholars, however, dispute such theses, arguing that Illyrians were not autochthonous and that Albanian derives from a dialect of the now-extinct Thracian language.)
Illyrian culture is believed to have evolved from the Stone Age and to have manifested itself in the territory of Albania toward the beginning of the Bronze Age, about 2000 BC. The Illyrians were not a uniform body of people but a conglomeration of many tribes that inhabited the western part of the Balkans, from what is now Slovenia in the northwest to (and including) the region of Epirus, which extends about halfway down the mainland of modern Greece. In general, Illyrians in the highlands of Albania were more isolated than those in the lowlands, and their culture evolved more slowly—a distinction that persisted throughout Albania's history.
Authors of antiquity relate that the Illyrians were a sociable and hospitable people, renowned for their daring and bravery at war. Illyrian women were fairly equal in status to the men, even to the point of becoming heads of tribal federations.[Who does this sound like?] In matters of religion, Illyrians were pagans who believed in an afterlife and buried their dead along with arms and various articles intended for personal use.
Ivan,
You've lost the present and the future now you want to bicker about the past. Sad!
Hey you all ....both serbs and siptars....
You must get something it doesn t get politics it gets so personal it hurts!The heart of Serbia is Kosovo!This is the same thing as if some Native American would like to claim White house and New York as his own...coz u know it belonged to their great grandfathers etc...I think u shouldnt represent something that comes from a state which was historicly made from (sorry for expressions)sluts and thugs from all across Europe...and now their big dad wants a piece of Balkan to give to Siptari?I don t think so...It is as I say personal...and it can t give us any thing good!Kosovo must not be in Big Albania!And sorry but thats a fact!It will only make WW3 and we don t want any more Hitlers in twenty first centuary!
I hope u got point....No hard words just tell me your opinion about this
Happy New Year and Merry Christmas!
Srecna vam Nova Godina!I srecan Bozic svim vjernicima!
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