Thursday, December 08, 2005

Croatia war crimes suspect Gotovina seized

A Croatian general charged with war crimes has been held in Spain, the UN's chief war crimes prosecutor has said.
Ante Gotovina was one of the most wanted men from the 1990s Balkan wars.

He is accused of war crimes against Serb civilians during a 1995 Croatian offensive to expel Serb forces from the country.

Carla Del Ponte, chief prosecutor at the International War Crimes Tribunal at The Hague, had repeatedly sought Gen Gotovina's detention.

She had criticised Croatian efforts to arrest the general.

31 comments:

Chris Blaku said...

Amazing, an international manhunt yields the immediate capture of a man whose alleged actions during the war pales in comparison to Karadzic or Mladic's behavior. Only in the "democracy" we call Serbia have these criminals been able to virtually evade capture for over a decade. During the occupation of Kosova, Serb forces were notorious among Albanian rebels for their ability to find their hideouts, what has changed?

Dardania 2006 said...

Justice served.

Also shows Croatia was not giving excuses and lying. He was in Spain!

I wonder though, how can someone wanted like Gotovina, so easily get to a tourist resort?

Chris,
Serbia does not dare capture Mladic and Karadzic, since doing that would result in quite a few murders (i.e. prime minister ring a bell?). Also it serves the government of Serbia since it supports the Serb psyche that "everyone is out to get them, especialy the Nazi Germany and USA". They still think the Nacional Party is in power there...

peace and love,

ivan said...

At 10:43 AM, Cvijus84 said...
It is quite amusing to see how people discuss in the most primitive manor, undermining others and with arguments that have no validity.

Firstly, if you want to make any expansionist steps, first take care of your internal affairs in Albania (in fact the poorest country in Europe). In politics and in history that is a sacred rule.

Secondly, in every historical source worldwide you will find out that Kosovo-Metohija was always Serbian, despite the fact that nowadays it is ethincally almost Albanian. Note that ethnically is not the same thing historically. Historicaly Kosovo-Metohija was NEVER Albanian. Therefore, those who say all the time about Serbian occupation should take a book and read about, I mean, is it possible for Albania to occupy Tirana? It's impossible for one country to occupy its own teritory.

Thirdly, I'm really interestd to learn more about this bishop Bogdani. As I know it, he was called bishop Bogdan of serbian origin. How would you like it for Serbs to call Kastriot as Kastriotevic? it was always a tendency of rather young nations to reinvent history and with this I mean the Albanian claims for Illyrians. The Illyrians disapeared in the 4th century AD and Albanians appear in the 14th century AD.
Concider my points and give me some civilized and valid arguments.
DOn't justify the stereotypes which exist in western Europe about Albanians.

illyrianboy said...

Ivan

WTF?

arianit said...

ivan (the Serb), not Ivan.

arianit said...

ivan,

You prove my point made earlier. Despite how his name might sound, Bishop Bogdani happenned to be a Catholic who put himself at the head of one of the Albanian uprisings at this time. His first name is Pjetër not Petar. He was based in Prishtina and afer he was captured and killed by the Turks, his body was given to the dogs to mutilate.

Don't you find it logical that an underground Catholic Ablanian uses a Serb name while at the same time Orthodox Church is running freely and collecting taxes for the Ottomans in Kosova.

This proves two things to the scholars I read: 1) that the Nemanjic had been slavicizing the Illyrian-Arber population of Kosova. 2) The only way to stay Christian in Kosova during this time was to assume an Orthodox identity since the Orthodox of all kinds, and the subdued Serb Orthodox Church especially, were given a special status by the Sultan.
It was Rome and Austria who were the main enemies of the Ottomans at this time, and Serb Church an ally in this fight.
This also explains why Catholic Albanian population today make the smallest share of Albanian population overall, some 5% located mainly in the fortress mountains of Albania.

Cvijus011 said...

To Arianit

I really respect the facts that you posted and I must say that finally somebody gave me some real arguments on which we can have a civilized discussion. If you don't mind I would like to base my following post on your facts.
I) You must differentiate between the Serbian Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Church. The Greeks had a very strong lobby in Constantinople (the notorious Fanariotes) which granted many privileges to the Greek Church, whereas the Serbian Church was prosecuted in the same way as the others. The Ottomans were constantly trying to put the Serbian Church under control using Greek priests, which also lead to the fact that Greeks were cooperating with the Turks in the name of the Serbian Church.
II) The Illyrian population extincted with the Roman invasion in the 4th century (as ivan has quoted me). During their existence, they inhabited predominantely the north Dalmatian coast (therefore initially the Croat nationalist movement in the 19th century was called the "Illyrian Movement"), therefore it is impossible that Nemanjic assimilated Illyrians.
III) In the 6th century Serbian tribes arrived in the Byzantine Empire and initially inhabited the city of Servia in Greece. Afterwards, the Emperor gave them the permission to go north and inhabit the, deserted from the Hunnic invasions, region of "Kossyfopedion", the Greek name for Kosovo-Metohija. If you don't believe me, then I suggest you to read the memoirs of the Byzantine Emperor Constantine Porfyrogentitous, which documents among others the birth of the Serbian state. In no part are the Albanians mentioned as the masters of Kosovo-Metohija.
IV) Bishop Petar Bogdanovic was a catholic priest from Dubrovnik, of Serbian origin, and he acted as a missionary in Kosovo-Metohije and convert the Serbian population into Catholicism in order to give legitimacy to the Catholic powers to invade.

fauna said...

aha

fauna said...

I think the Serbian gov't should focus on writing books about how the Albanians came from another planet and landed right on Kosovo.

This probably has a better chance of selling! Everyone likes UFO stories and such...

Visit Prishtina said...

Cvijus84,

You must be a complete idiot and imbecile not to notice the fundamental flaws in your arguments. I am sorry I am forced to address you using such terms, but frankly you deserve no better.

You appear from nowhere and allow yourself to call our discussions as primitive and our arguments invalid. The results of decades of Serbian racist and supremacist policies are obvious: non-Serbs are primitive people and nothing that they say is valid.

The first thing you need to learn is that Serbia does not have a political dispute with Albania (the Republic of) but with Kosovars, the people of Kosova. May I also remind (or teach) you that by Kosovar I do not mean just Kosovar Albanians but also Kosovar Turks, Kosovar Bosniaks, Kosovar Roma-Egjiptas-Ashkalis and others. Needless to say, Kosovar Albanians are the dominant ethnic group with approx. 90 per cent of the Kosova's population.

Hence, your argument that we, the Kosovars, should take care of our internal affairs of the Republic of Albania is fundamentally flawed, and consequently false. I know this hurts you deeply, but our internal affairs are in Kosova.

Second, your brainlessness and imbecility is best demonstrated by your fundamentally flawed argument that Kosova was always Serbian. What kind of a mentally handicapped person are you? Do you have any idea of what always means? Does your "always" also include the period when dinosaurs existed, because if it does not then it is certainly not always? Moreover, does your "always" also include the period up to the 6th-7th century when there was no Slavs in the Balkans? If your "always" includes that period, then you are lying. If it does not, then again you are lying because that is not the meaning of always.

Again, your brainlessness and illogicality is demonstrated by your absurd and radically flawed argument that Kosova was never Albanian. Seriously, what kind of a cretin are you? Do you have any understanding whatsoever of the meaning of never? Does your "never" also include the period of the last 5 years? Of the last 10 years? Or the last 25 years? Or the last 50 years? Or the last 100 years? If your "never" includes any (so, not necessarily all) of these, then you are lying. If it does not, then again you are lying because that is not the meaning of never.

Consequently, the conclusion we can draw so far is that you are a liar, a falsifier and a fabricator. Yes, you are all of these.

Furthermore, you endeavoured to draw some conclusions from your flawed arguments, and because your arguments were false, your conclusion is also false too.

I am not a historian and I do not know who Bishop Bogdani was or what he did. I could not care less about a person who died (or was killed) over 500 years ago. I am also not a policeman or a private investigator, so I have absolutely no interest in solving a (possible) murder that took place over 500 years ago. Nevertheless, issues that matter politically are: what is the situation 'on the ground' today. Yes, today, because if we were to go back 500 years ago and try and solve murders or disputes of that age, then there would be no Europeans in America, Australia or New Zealand.

What really matters is the realities on the ground today. Michael Jackson less than 20 years ago was the biggest star in the world and also one of the richest men on Earth, but today he is the laughing stock of the world's media and also on the brick of bankruptcy. The Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth controlled half of Europe from 1564 to 1795, from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea, but today these countries are much smaller and the realities on the ground are very different. Approx. 60 years ago (before the Second World War) Germany controlled many European areas where today it has no power or control whatsoever.

You wanted some civilised and valid arguments, there you go.

What happened to the glories Illyrian Tribes and when the Albanian nation first appeared are historical issues, and they are dealt by history. History is just history, and it should be left as history. It will not solve a single political problem today. So what if Bishop Bogdani was not Albanian? So what if the Albanian nation appeared in the 14th century? History is not, was not, and will not be an absolute science. Different people see history differently, so what? History changes. One day Lenin is the hero, next morning he is the villain.

I mean, why on Earth would I care about the conflicts between the Greek and the Serbian Church? Is that where the solution to the issue of Kosova lies? I could not care less whether Greeks had a lobby in Istanbul (yes, read that again Istanbul). What kind of an imbecile can ask other people to read books and check facts and then call Istanbul something that is not? Every world atlas in English refers to the historic Turkish city as Istanbul, and so does the United Nations, the European Union, media and national governments. So, next time you go and read a book; you might learn a thing or two.

If you want valid arguments, then you must get your facts straight.

Ever since the creation of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, and subsequently Yugoslavia, the population of Kosova has been majority Albanian. In other words, every time Serbs conducted a census the population of Kosova proved to be majority Albanian. So much for your argument that Kosova was "never" Albanian!

Before the creation of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, Kosova was under Ottoman Empire, and correct me if I am wrong, but the Ottoman Empire was not Serbian. Kosova was under Ottoman Empire from 1389 until the 1918, i.e. 529 years. Again, so much for you argument that Kosova was "always" Serbian.

Go check the results of the censuses undertaken since the beginning of the 20th century. But be warned, you might be heartbroken afterwards!

For example, in 1921 accourding to Serbian registration of population, 64.1 per cent of the population of Kosova were Albanian. Let me write that again, Albanians consisted 64.1 per cent of the population of Kosova in 1921, nearly 100 years ago. So, Kosova was Albanian at the very least since then.

Also, I can not leave out this interesting topic, the birth of the Serbian nation. Since, as you say, Serbs first went to Servia in Greece, why is that not a "sacred" Serbian place? Rashka, Servia, Belgrade... in how many places can a nation be born?

Finally, I would like to comment the way you address Kosova. If we were to follow the Serb logic, which you clearly do, then we would have countries like "Russia and Kaliningrad region", "United States of America and Alaska", "Spain and Ibiza", "Italy and Sicily", and I would add here "Serbia and Sandjak" or "Serbia and Vojvodina". An endless list.

Serbian brainlessness knows no limits.

Have a nice day, and save some money to come and visit Kosova as a foreign tourist.

arianit said...

visit prishtina is absolutely right.

But I must add that Serbs don't have even history on their side. Either that or they are terribly confused. Here's more about Bogdani, how he was born near Prizren, wrote in Latin and Albanian, gathered 6,000 Albanian soldier to join the Austrian invasion of the Ottoman territories in Kosova, and how his uncle was the Archibishop of Shkup (Skopje):
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pjet%C3%ABr_Bogdani&oldid=30456001

FYI, cvijus84, suffix -vic (as in the supposed Bogdanovic) is Serbian. If he was a Croat, he would have been called Bogdanic. If you don't know that much about your own culture, I guess it's not even worth disucussing with you about mine.

Cheers!

Cvijus011 said...

Dear "visit pristina"

First of all let me thank you for proving me right. The way you adressed me and characterized me (liar, brainless, imbecil, etc.) just proves how cultivated you are. I don't want to continue the row of insults which you initiated, but I would like to respond to some stuff you wrote.

The "serbian racist and supremasist" policies, as you called them, in Kosovo-Metohija have been replaced with an rasist policy of the Albanian majority. Bare in mind that since the occupation of Kosovo-Metohija by the NATO forces and the UCK terrorists, more than 3.000 Serbs have been murders, whereas more than 200.000 were forced to leave their homes. If that ain't racist, than what?
If you don't believe me that Kosovo-Metohija was Serbian before it became ethnically Albanian, than look at our monasteries and churches which date from the Middle Ages, and you histerically try to destroy them (remember March 2004). But yet again, I suppose that afterwards you will tell me that the Albanians built them. Now I repeat myself when I say that young nations reinvent history.
Also another historical fact which you misinterpretated. Kosovo-Metohija was under Ottoman rule from 1389 (that's when the invasion started, they were taking it gradually) until 1912, when the Serbs LIBERATED it. Until the second world war the propertion of the population was 70% Serbian and 30% Albanian. But you don't have to believe me, I don't care anyway.
From a more realistic point of view I state that I'm for Kosovo-Metohija to become independent. In that way Serbia will get rid of extra deficit which this underdeveloped province causes to the Serbian budget. If the Albanians want to be independent and in poverty, than let them be, who cares. Otherwise, we just get an instable province with two million people who will cause us problems.
For you invitation to Kosovo-Metohija, there are better olaces to visit than that province with the highest rate of criminality in Europe.

One thing I want to ask you: Why are the Shqiptare so afraid of the name "Metohija"? Is it so spooky for you?

Oh yeah, you call the of Shkoder with that name, ain't it. Well I call Kosov-Metohija with it's name.

The attributes that you gave me in the begining (stupid, imbecil, etc), you know it is said a gyu always recognizes his kind, that makes you and me the same, welcome to the club.

Pozdrav

armera said...

Cvijusovic,

We do agree then after all, Kosova will become independent. I promise you my dear neighbor your wish will be fulfilled.

One thing though, yes one can change history however I don’t think that you can predict future. You seem to do both.

Cvijus011 said...

My dear armera

It seems that you have the same ability to predict the future by saying that Kosovo-Metohija will be independent. If you read my comentary carefully, I wish that this province gets independence, not because I sympathise with the Albanians, but because it will be in the best interest of Serbia to get read of that deficit-and-political-crisis-making province.
Yes, one can change history, but I'm not the who is doing that. Prove me wrong.
Have a nice day

armera said...

Cvijusovic,

Do you really think I care to prove you wrong?

Visit Prishtina said...

Cvijus84,

1.
First, it's Visit Prishtina, not Visit Pristina.

2.
What did I prove right? That you are a complete idiot and imbecile. It was you who first initiated the insults by calling non-Serbs as primitive and their arguments invalid. At the beginning of my previous post I apologies in advance that I was forced to use such language, however if you insult people you deserve no better.

3.
Your response was a typical Serbian response. I proved all your previous arguments to be false and they disappeared like David Copperfield, so now you do not refer to them anymore. Why? That was just the first knockout, and more are to come. I see I disciplined you not to use "always" and "never", so apparently Kosovar Albanians can actually teach you a lesson, and that must hurt.

4.
Now let me proceed and destroy your new claims.

3000 Serbs were killed by the Kosova Liberation Army? Where did this come from? I sincerely wish that Kosova Liberation Army killed 3000 Serb soldiers/policemen, but I seriously doubt it. The only thing that you can complain about is if these 3000 people were civilians, and that is definitely not the case. Can you cite any reliable source which puts the number of Serb civilian deaths at 3000? Please, no stupid sources like Serbian Radical Party or the other Communist rubbish. Acceptable sources are any UN or EU agency, and maybe BBC.

As far as 200.000 Serb refugees, I can not believe one can speak so much rubbish. And I mean total rubbish. The Serbian government statistics show that in 1991 there were fewer than 200.000 Serbs in Kosova (or 194,190 to be more precise, check the official website here). UN estimates put the number of Serbs living in Kosova at present to 100.000. Bearing in mind that the number of Serbs living in Kosova was in decline for a long period it is very likely that the number of Serbs living in Kosova in 1999 was at most 200.000. You do the maths, imbecile!

This is yet another certified lie. How much can you lie? How long will it take you to convince yourself that you are a liar, a falsifier and a fabricator?

5.
Idiot, get it in your head once and for all that Ottoman Empire controlled Kosova from 1389 until 1912, and the Ottoman Empire was not Serbian. Whether Serbs occupied or liberated Kosova in 1912 is another matter, a completely different topic. This shows that Serbs did not control Kosova for over 500 years, hence your previous statement about Kosova being "always Serbian" is not true.

6.
What kind of a brainless person are you when official Serbian government statistics show that back in 1921 Kosova's population consisted of 64.1 per cent Albanians. Does the Serbian government also change the history and falsify the statistics so that they are pro-Albanian? The following are the official Serbian government statistics for 1921: Population of Kosova 439,010 inhabitants, and 280,440 (64.1%) were Albanian. Do you also doubt the Serbian Government statistics because if you do then you must seek help from a psychiatrist!

What was that talk about 70%/30%? Yet another Serbian fabrication?

7.
I hope your wish for Kosova to become independent becomes true as soon as possible. The motives are not important.

8.
Albanians have a name for western Kosova, Dukagjini, so we do not have to use Serbian names, thank you very much. And your other question was too stupid to answer. This is your idiotic logic: why don't Americans call their country “United States of America and Alaska”? Why are American afraid of Alaska? Is it so spooky for Americans?

You are an idiot, brainless and imbecile because what you say makes no sense and every argument of yours is fundamentally flawed. You are too weak to have a proper discussion with me, I am in a completely different league, so you can only dream of being in the same club as I.

VisitPrishtina.com

Visit Prishtina said...

Armera,

I just proved this Serb is a liar, a falsifier and a fabricator. He lied that Kosova was "always Serbian", and that Kosova was "never Albanian". That is a lie, which implies that I proved his/her (I do not exclude the possibility that Cvijus84 is a pussy) claims are false.

He/she also lied that there are 200.000 Kosovar Serb refugees, which is absurd, to put it mildly.

VisitPrishtina.com

Cvijus011 said...

Dear Visit Prishtina (I'm sorry for misspelling your name, honest mistake)

Still you prove me right, your primitivism is a big league. But still I will not lower my level to yours.
The things about "always" and "never" on which you stick to like a dog to a bone. It doesn't matter dude, those are just words, but facts are what matter.

I) In this discussion I haven't called so far any non-Serb as primitive or something else, just the individuals with their bird-brains, Serbs and Albanians. If I did do something like that, than please quote me.

II) If you don't believe me about the refugees, than visit some NGO sites or the Ministry for Human and Minority Rights to see (be careful, the minister is also a member of a national minority). Oh yeah, you were right, the number was not 200.000 (thanks for the correction) but 233.938.

III) My arguments didn't disapear like Copperfield, I'm just to bored to rewrite them, since it is worthles to convince you people.

IV) If my arguments are typical as those of the Serbian radicals or communists (both of them I hate), than you sound like Enver Hodza or the UCK terrorists. I think that mentally you still live in the 19th century.

V) Kosovo-Metohija is called Kosovo-Metohija since the times of Constantine Porphyrogenitous (go and check in wikipedia if you don't know who that is), I'm not familiar with any history about the name Dukagjini apart from the fact that that was the zone of actions of that terroristic murder Haradinaj (Dukagjini plateau). if it annoyes you, that's your problem. Anyways, Metohija (metoxos - owner) is a Greek name which denoted the land property of the Serbian Orthodox Church.

VI) If you don't believe me about the 3.000 murdered Serbs from the UCK terrorists and other Albanian criminals (and I'm only talking about the period before '99, who knows how many more before that), than come to Serbia to hear the stories. if you wish those were policemen and soldiers, then I don't know how many of yours we have killed before '99, but I sincerelly hope so the were these filthy UCK terrorists (and they deserve to be insulted).

VII) Thanks for the link, but before you do again something like that (giving me serbian links) than first learn to read serbian so you can read that from '99 until March 2005 more than 220.000 Serbs were kicked out of their homes and more than 120 churches and monasteries were destroyed (that's very tolerant).
Before you state something like that again, will you be kind please to give some more valid sources?

VIII) About your point 5, yes Kosovo was under the Ottomans from 1389 until 1912, but when I say "always Serbian" I mean that since Serbs inhabited until 1941, Kosovo-Metohija was predominantely ethinically Serbian. Learn to read between the rows

Visit Prishtina, with your insults you're just proving you disability to prove me wrong and since you cannot write something more inteligent, you turn to insults. but you are right, I#m way away from your league. If this league does always include such insults and manners, than I don't even have the desire to come near your league and have a "proper discussion" as you called it.
One friendly advise from me; You're to emotional dude, relax a bit.

Have a nice day

Cvijus011 said...

Dear armera

firstly, my name isn't cvijusovic, nice try.
secondly, if you don't care proving me wrong, than why are you talking to me?

cao

ivan said...

Visit Pristina you are amazing. First of all, do you have a job or a life? I am really sorry, but i have not since anybody capable to wirte so long and flawless essays, without any sense, and thus to have other responsibilities in his life. I guess your only repsonsibility is to prove yourself with stupid arguments like the one of "always" and "never". Very good arguments. Or the one like "can a human being really throw a rock?". For you information, in British english, rock can have the same meaning as stone. If you dont belive me, ask anybody who is a native British english speaker. Or will you try to falsify that as well.

Cvijus 84, is writting facts. I agree with him, to some extent. Kosovo should be independent, it is obvious that our people can not live next to each other, and that Kosovo albanians are just a burdon to Serbia. the sooner we get rid off you the better it is for us. However, you can not take everything. You can not take our cultural treasures, you can not take Serbian homes. I just do hope Kosovo gets divided, and then "Good bye". But you are not happy with your part of Kosovo, you are greedy, you want everything. That is what upsets me! Not only do you steal our territory, but now you want to steal our history. Unfortinatelly with your drug money, you buy western souls to support you. You gave me before a very imaginative againa "proof" of how Albanian mafia can not operate and sell drugs, please grow up, when where i personally live , Belgium, the biggest drug mafia is Albanian.

I have to go and work now and earnt he money in a honest and taxable way (unlike you).

Pomoz Bog

illyrianboy said...

I am so sick of you Serbs trying to sound like you are "cultivated" "law-abinding" citizens, when at the same time you support the genocidal policies and your posts are full of racist remarks.

Please spare us the "cultivated" BS. And, if you think that Kosovo should become independent, please don't waste time posting in this blog.

Visit Prishtina said...

To Ivan:

Since you are so interested, I thought I should inform you that I should soon obtain my Ph.D. title. In other words, my username will soon change to Dr. Visit Prishtina.

May I also inform you that I know how to build a strong argument and base it on reasoning, and I can destroy one just as easily. So, you and Cvijus84 go and earn your honest money flipping burgers at McDonald's, and I for a change will stick to people of my level and learn something in return.

Needless to say, honest money can not buy you a Ph.D., you need other qualities which I have noticed that you and Cvijus84 lack seriously.

You endeavour to built arguments that are so flawed that I do not know how you managed to finish high school, though now that I think about it 'learning by heart' helps at that level.

Have a nice day!

See you in Brussels (at the EU headquarters I mean)!

VisitPrishtina.com

Cvijus011 said...

Dear prishtina

I must agree with Ivan, you do have to have a life and not all day long healing your complexes in this blogspot.
Myself I live in Germany and study, and as in Belgium the biggest mafia over here is the Albanian, as it is as well in Greece, Cyprus, New York, etc. My German friends characterize Albanians as parasites. I classify people to good people and bad people, despite of nationalities, but since you are doing your PhD, than you should know the difference between collective and individual behavior. The Albanian collective behavior annoyes me, even though I have many Albanian friends. If you need some insight in the theory of collective behavior, I will gladly help you.
Having a PhD assumes that you follow a certain codex of manners and behavior, which in your case is somewhat absent. So far I haven't seen any PhD who uses words such as imbecil, stupid, brainless, etc. just to cover his inability to give some valid arguments. Oh yeah, flipping burgers is much better than selling drugs or stealing teritories, at least flipping burgers is honest.
You haven't answered me about the government site which you gave me, you forgot about it?
I don't know what qualities you have, but I don't want them.
And this "see you in Brussels" which you said to Ivan, what does that mean? Is it some kind of a threat? A that all you Albanians can do? Threat?

Have a nice day dr. Prishtina
Pozdrav

Cvijus011 said...

Illyrian boy

just compare my posts and the posts of Visit Prishtina and than say who's the cultivated one.
Oh yeah, when we don't agree with Albanian policies we are racists and genocide supporters, and when you don't agree woth Serbian policies than it is perfectly fine?
That's what I call dopuble standards my friend.

Have a nice day

dave said...

@ cvijus84,
I'm pretty sure VisitPrishtina was talking about the EU capital when he said "see you in Brussels" (i.e. as two separate independent member-states in the EU).
Generalizations about Albanians are not the way to exemplify your dignified nature. ("Is it some kind of a threat? A that all you Albanians can do"). I doubt that your Albanian friends would appreciate that.

Although I must say this conversation has generally been an interesting one with a certain degree of civility on both sides. There will always be emotions when talking about Kosova/o given the recent and historic bloodshed and hopefully most people understand that.

In any event, my personal opinion is that the best point made here has been, "... issues that matter politically are: what is the situation 'on the ground' today." It sounds like there is agreement that independence is the only option. That's great!

In hopes of an independent, undivided and prosperous Kosova/Kosovo...
- Dave

Schöne Grüsse nach Deutschland, Belgien, Kosova und Serbien!

ivan said...

Dr Visit Prishtina,

I am glad your are doing your PhD, but then I am disappointed in your education program. If you justify your thesis with the arguments like “always” and “never”, or as “can a person throw a rock”, then I really doubt in your PhD validity. I thought you guys should be wise, and defend your arguments with valid facts and not insults. Or maybe your PhD is based upon how to prove arguments by calling somebody an imbecile and an idiot, and then make a very collaborative proof that these insults are valid. WOW.

If you really believe that I cook burgers in McDonalds, then I must say that you have a very high opinion of Serbian people. Thanks for the compliment to my people.

Cvijus 84, is defending his arguments with facts in a very polite manner. Like a real academic person. I am sure that if you want, he would be able to put in foot notes the sources and references to his arguments. But then again I am sure he is a person with responsibilities and he does not have so much time as you apparently.

Just take a note, the proof of Serbian cultivism is found in the fact that if you analyze the posts of Cvijus 84 and I, you will not be able to find not even one



To Dave,

I agree we should look at the situation the way it is at the moment, but then refer to your co patriots who claim that Kosovo was invaded by Serbs. Let’s stick to the actual, and do not try to modify the history to your benefit, so you could justify the theft of Serbian territory. Why are you Kosovo Albanians so against the splitting of Kosovo? Honestly to say, if you took care of the Serbs in Kosovo after 1999, and if Serbs had the freedom of movement and did not had to fear for their life that is threatened by Kosovo Albanians, Kosovo would have been independent long time ago and we would not have this discussion. But unfortunately, your people torture the Serbs and non Albanians in Kosovo, and that is the only reason why the western world didn’t grant you your independence. So if your people have shown that they are not willing to live with Serbian people, why don’t you just split with us? Give us our share of Kosovo, you get yours, we close the borders and we live happily ever after without each other.

ivan said...

Dr Visit Prishtina,

I am glad your are doing your PhD, but then I am disappointed in your education program. If you justify your thesis with the arguments like “always” and “never”, or as “can a person throw a rock”, then I really doubt in your PhD validity. I thought you guys should be wise, and defend your arguments with valid facts and not insults. Or maybe your PhD is based upon how to prove arguments by calling somebody an imbecile and an idiot, and then make a very collaborative proof that these insults are valid. WOW.

If you really believe that I cook burgers in McDonalds, then I must say that you have a very high opinion of Serbian people. Thanks for the compliment to my people.

Cvijus 84, is defending his arguments with facts in a very polite manner. Like a real academic person. I am sure that if you want, he would be able to put in foot notes the sources and references to his arguments. But then again I am sure he is a person with responsibilities and he does not have so much time as you apparently.

Just take a note, the proof of Serbian cultivism is found in the fact that if you analyze the posts of Cvijus 84 and I, you will not be able to find not even one word that puts down the opposing party with insulting words.



To Dave,

I agree we should look at the situation the way it is at the moment, but then refer to your co patriots who claim that Kosovo was invaded by Serbs. Let’s stick to the actual, and do not try to modify the history to your benefit, so you could justify the theft of Serbian territory. Why are you Kosovo Albanians so against the splitting of Kosovo? Honestly to say, if you took care of the Serbs in Kosovo after 1999, and if Serbs had the freedom of movement and did not had to fear for their life that is threatened by Kosovo Albanians, Kosovo would have been independent long time ago and we would not have this discussion. But unfortunately, your people torture the Serbs and non Albanians in Kosovo, and that is the only reason why the western world didn’t grant you your independence. So if your people have shown that they are not willing to live with Serbian people, why don’t you just split with us? Give us our share of Kosovo, you get yours, we close the borders and we live happily ever after without each other.

dave said...

Ivan,
Splitting Kosova/o makes absolutely no sense once you've decided to grant independence for a few MAJOR reasons.
1. Creating a new nation along ethnic lines is not an example anyone wants to set in this world.
2. Northern Kosova/o has extremely valuable resources that would be imperitive to the financial survival of a small nation. It is after all called "Northern Kosova/o" and not "Southern Serbia".

I would imagine that you haven't spent much time with young Kosovars in Prishtina. The overwhelming majority does not and would not "torture Serbs" as you claimed. There is a small minority of people on both sides of the ethnic divide who practice extreme behavior mostly due to the horrific personal experiences of war. This BY NO MEANS indicates the majority of Kosovars have been torturing the ethnic Serbian minority in Kosova/o. If anything, the Serbian nation has done more harm to Kosovar-serbs by polarizing them from the majority in Kosova/o and pushing them to stay out of their own local politics.

The best thing for both sides is for Kosova to become independent ASAP and maintain its present borders. Serbia can begin internal reform and look towards a prosperous future. After all, Serbia was an industrial powerhouse before all the wars and could easily achieve this again.
Kosova on the other hand can finally begin forging solid investment deals with foreign investors and can move ahead with their own reforms to rebuild the economic, industrial and academic institutions that suffered so greatly over the last 20 years.

Cvijus011 said...

To dave,

Constantly I hear on the news that Albanians are against dividing Kosovo-Metohija (don't forget that Kosovo-Metohija is still not independent, which means it's still part of Serbia, therefore it can still be concidered as south Serbia) .
However, I think that we should look at the situation in the long-run if eventually Kosovo-Metohija gains its independence. As we would have problems with the Albanians if Kosovo-Metohija remains in Serbia, in the same way you (I write you because I suppose you're also Albanian, don't get me wrong if I'm mistaken) will have problems with the Serbs if northern Kosovo-Metohija becomes independent with the rest of the province. Surely, du to the incapable government in Belgrade the Serbs over there are misleaded, but I don't see that the Kosovo government is capable of including them in the public life or even provide guarantees for their safety and peaceful existence. So far I haven't seen taht the murders from Gorazdevac or the March 2004 violence have been cought and tried. Surely, northern kosovo-Metohija has very valuable resources, but those are not the only ones, besides, kosovo-metohija has an important geopolitical value for southeast Europe, therefore you should use also this advantage.
You're right when you say that it is only the majority which terrorises the Serbs, however it is always the minorities who are dominants, whereas the majority is passive. Also, I don't really notice that the lawenforcing forces (by this I mean the UNMIK and the Kosovo Defence Corpus) are investing enough efforts to deroot this minority.
Speaking of minorities, don't think that the whole Serbian nation supported the horrors that happen to your people. But also, in war situation nobody is innocent, I've met many Serbs from Kosovo-Metohija who experienced terrible horrors from the UCK during the war. Don't forget that since '99, 3.000 Serbs have been killed or missing and more than 220.000 were forced to leave their homes and become refugees. But I believe that no nation is collectivily responsible for such horrors that both our people suffer, only certain individuals (such as Milosevic, Taci, etc)
Thank you for your wishes for rebuilding Serbia.
i wish that we can all peacefully coexist and have good neighbor relations.

dave said...

@cvijus
Just to avoid offending anyone (by voicing opinions that might not reflect Albanians, since you stated your assumption that I am Albanian), I want to clarify that I am an American who has been living in Europe for quite some time, and who is fascinated and intrigued by the history and future of the Balkans.

Regarding your comment "I don't see that the Kosovo government is capable of including them in the public life or even provide guarantees for their safety and peaceful existence."

I believe that high profile members of the Kosovar government have indeed made very public comments calling for ethnic cooperation AND PARTICULARLY: participation from the Serb minority. Many of these politicians have even visited several of the Serbian enclaves and addressed the local populations in the Serbian language! I would imagine however that this is not reported in the Serbian media as it goes against the Serbian nationalist agenda of portraying the Kosovar authorities as racist and incapable.

You also said, "I haven't seen taht the murders from Gorazdevac or the March 2004 violence have been cought and tried."

First off, the Kosovar government still does not have its own bureau of internal affairs and it's hands are therefore tied. Also, the Serbian secret service is extremely distrusted in Kosova/o because of past operations (not too different from the allegations you have made of the UCK - and often much worse). The fact that such operatives have been recently sighted and even arrested does not help inter-ethnic relations. It even leaves me to wonder if there is any possibility that they have been responsible for at least some of the recent attacks.
HOWEVER, despite all of this, major steps were taken immediately following March 2004 by the local government to condemn the violence and more efforts were made to rebuild damaged Serb-owned buildings than the government has even made in repairing homes destroyed during the war in 1998/1999. Prosecuting those responsible is impossible because March 2004 was essentially a result of building tension felt by all Kosovars (no matter ethnicity) towards the incompetent international "leadership". You would have to prosecute hundreds of people including UN officials, Serbs and Albanians.

It is by all means in the interest of the Kosovar government to cooperate with the Serb minority, and that is precisely why they are trying to do that. But, you cannot deny that it would benefit the Serbian government for these relations to fail, can you? Therefore, it would seem very possible that the Kosovar government IS indeed "capable of including them in the public life or even provide guarantees for their safety and peaceful existence." as you questioned.
Isn't that logical?
Dave

Mollos said...

Wow! It is a war zone down here. Well it is true then. Nationalism is the favorite sport in the Balkans, the latter well known for being geopolitically and emotionally unstable. You know what I mean. I think that even GHANDI could have gotten a headache over this issue that you guys are debating forever. Take a breath enjoy life and let the American Empire take care of business. None of the little countries such as Serbia or Albania can solve problems like this. Let the big powers fix their own mistakes from 1913.

Thank you guys and carpe diem. Life is short. You don’t want to spend your life talking statistics. Long live freedom down with nationalism.

Nationalism is the worst virus that destroys your hard drive (the brain). And if you were infected with that virus since you were a kid which means that somebody downloaded the wrong files with a lot of junk into your hard drive. Therefore I have four words for you my friend “Huston you got a problem.”

Thank you and peace be with you