Wednesday, December 14, 2005

Albania supports independent, "West-oriented" Kosovo, Speaker tells Rugova

Text of report in English by independent internet news agency KosovaLive

Prishtina [Pristina], 14 December: Albanian Assembly chairwoman [Speaker] Jozefina Topalli and Kosova [Kosovo] President Ibrahim Rugova consider that an independent Kosova integrated into Euro-Atlantic structures is a realistic solution that absolutely helps peace and stability in the region.

Topalli is in a two-day visit to Kosova at the invitation of Kosova Assembly chairman [Speaker] Nexhat Daci.

On behalf of the Albanian parliament, Topalli greeted President Rugova for his great contribution to Kosova's political life and for his leadership.

Topalli shared with President Rugova her optimism that the will of Kosovar people for independence will be realized soon.

"And Mr president, you enjoy the support of the entire Albanian parliament, Albanian government, and all Albanians in Albania," Topalli said.

She said that Albania will support an independent Kosova with a West-oriented vision. While President Rugova informed the Albanian parliament speaker with the progress in Kosova and for the political developments in Prishtina towards independence.

"I insist for a direct recognition of Kosova's independence, a democratic, independent, and peaceful Kosova, in the European Union, maintaining a permanent friendship with the United States. So, this would lead to new paths, new perspectives, and it would calm this part of Europe and the world," Rugova said.

The Kosova president said that he expects even greater support from Albania.

Source: KosovaLive website, Pristina, in English 14 Dec 05

35 comments:

zotrules said...

"I insist for a direct recognition of Kosova's independence, a democratic, independent, and peaceful Kosova, in the European Union, maintaining a permanent friendship with the United States."
Well said; nevertheless I'd rather prefer an integration of all albanians into US rather than a so long suffered racist traumatic Europe in new cloak.

Cvijus011 said...

1.
What does this mean? Albania supports separatism? We are talking about double standards here since it's ok that Albania to talk about independent Kososvo, but in the Serbian case it wasn't ok to support Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia (they were also fighting for their freedom)? Even now it isn't ok to support Republika Srpska. Definetely double standards.

2. Who gave the permission to Albania to interfere in Serbian internal politics? Don't forget that Kosovo-Metohija is officially still a part of Serbia, which under international law means that Albania openly expresses its hostility towards Serbia. The final status of Kosovo-Metohija is matter between Serbia, Kosovar Albanians ant the UN. Nobody called the Albanian government, so they should stay in Albania and mind their own business.

UA said...

"which under international law means that Albania openly expresses its hostility towards Serbia"

You must be the dumbest Serb ever.
PS. There are no double standards here since the Serbs have initiated every single war in the Balkans.

ivan said...

UA,

Just one question? Who initiated the war in Kosovo? Does UCK ring a bell? Didnt they start attacking Serbian civilians, police and army? Or maybe it was the evil Serbian police who attacked some alabanian civilians who by accident were in groups and were equiped with weapons? give me a break. Just tell me, based on what rules is Kosovo allowed to be independent, and Republika Srpska is not? what is the difference?

Cvijus011 said...

to ua

I haven't offended you on personal level, so I would appreciate for you not to offend me as well.

The reality is that kosovo-metohija is STILL a SERBIAN province, until it gets its independence. Until that, every statement like those made from the Albanian chairwoman is a direct attack on Serbia, logical consequence, it states directly a hostility. Even if Albania wishes its future in the EU, such statements shouldn't be made. recall on the relations between Hungary and Romania and the issue of Transylvania.

No I'm quoting you: " There are no double standards here since the Serbs have initiated every single war in the Balkans"

Recall a little bit from recent history that
1) the war in Croatia started with the Croatian police and mass attacking and murdering Yugoslav (JNA) soldiers and Serbian civilians.
2) the war in Bosnia started with Muslim (Bosnian) soldiers murdering guests at a Serbian weding.
3) the war in Kosovo-Metohija started with the UCK terorrists killing Serbian civilians and in a more particular case a Serbian family in Gnjilane.

Also I would like to remind you that in the wars in Croatia and Bosnia, Serbia wasn't directly involved, which means, not in a state of war.

One question which I would like to ask you: Why is Albania so eager for Kosovo-Metohija to get its independence?

Titan said...

Cvijus84, it looks like the group of brainwashed people by the regime that dwarfed Serbia's borders is being inherited. As long as person in Serbia thinks that "all the world is wrong" he will see his country dwarfing!
Forget the history you're referring to. It's wrong. That history makes you read this website. Don't you see the way Vojvodina is going to? Take it easy and enjoy the changes.


ps. pay more attention to reality!

Regards.

illyrianboy said...

Why is it OK for a Swiss official to support Kosova's independence, but it's not OK for an Albanian offical to do the same?

Albania is a sovereign country and it can have any position it wants towards any issue.

If Serbia has the right to bitch about the 5% of Kosova's population that are Serb, why Albania doesn't get to say anything about 92% of Kosova's population that are Albanian.

Cvijus ans Ivan, your government apparently doesn't think that Albania is interfering in Serbian internal politics. I mean how detached from the reality you have to be to say that the agenda of Kosova's President - elected by Kosovars, and who can meet anyone he wants - is Serbian internal politics?

Serbian internal politics is the Belgrade Pashallik. That's it.

You guys should check out some real news sources.

Mir said...

Take Kosovo but do not cross the border, since you claim you arent "expansionists". If Medvedyja is threatened by Albanians, I will enlist in the professional army and fight for it like my great grandfather did in Tito's army in WW2. You can take our land but you cannot take our history.

-Mitar

illyrianboy said...

Mir, what is wrong with you and your "can't take ou history"? Are you claiming now that Medvegja, Bujanovc and Presheva are the "cradle" of Serbia and Serbian identity?

Let me remind you that it is the Serbs who have hijacked the history, claiming that they were the only ones who fought against Ottomans in 1389. (The battle was lost anyway so it doesnt matter.)

Medvegja & B P are not going to be threatened by Albanians my friend. Among other reasons BECAUSE those municipalities are inhabited by Albanians. So if you respect those people and treat them right, UNLIKE the Serbian government has done so far, everything will be OK.

BTW we are not taking Kosovo. It was ours all the time.

Mir said...

"BTW we are not taking Kosovo. It was ours all the time. "

Bastard. Was it yours before Tito built your homes, schools, churches, and mosques there also?

Fuck this. Im out, hopefully these two big dumbass countries kill each other off completely like the dumbasses they are.

illyrianboy said...

It's OK to be frustrated, but don't call anyone bastard!

Didn't you just say that was your country and you were willing to fight for it?

And, enough with the Tito thing! That's so lame!

Hasta la vista

ivan said...

illyrianboy,

how was Kosovo-Metohija yours all the time. Please find me one Western source, which states that at one point of time before the 20th century, albanians were a majority in Kosovo- Metohija. If you need help,here is a hint, go to Wikipedia.

Tito enabled you to settle in Kosovo- Metohija, it was with Serbian tax payers money that he built hospitals, schools and houses for you. Dont forget that, it was Serbian people who built everything for you.


Just to inform you, Kosovo is still part of Serbia, and your so called government can not pass one law without it being approved by UNMIK. Believe me, even if you do get your independence, the world would not allow you to run your country on your own. the reason is because 3000 Serbs missing, 200 000 serbs that are refugees from Kosovo and are not able to come back to their homes. You are stealing Serbian people territory, invading their empty houses, invading churches property, attacking Serbian children ( the shooting of a 17 year old boy just because he was carrying a serbian book in his hand, does it ring a bell), attacking old serbian people, throwing rocks at buses with serbs when they go to do shopping, as you see the list goes on and on. And you want independance? Honestly if you treated the Serbian people correctly, maybe i would not be here and I would put all the blame on Milosevic. But the way your culture and people treat my people, I am not in support of sending 300 000 Serbs to be massacred.

Cvijus011 said...

To Titan,

According to you thesis, we were all collectivelly brainwashed by Milosevic? So what were than the 2 million people in front of the Parliament in 5th October 2000?
Don't forget that Serbian is on the side of the "good guys". The government is not anymore racist, it is just protecting the national interests of Serbia. If you perceive it as racist, than you have a problem with the world.

To Illyrianboy,

I haven't heard yet about any Swiss official propagating the independence of Kosovo-metohija, if he does, than yet again it is wrong. Serbia is bitching about this 5% because it is SERBIA's terittory and Serbia has the right to bitch for their people who live under constant horror from this 92%. And please don't tell me again how the Albanians were suffering because that happened 6 years ago and now the Albanians have undertaken the role of the oppressor.
Serbian internal politics are the Belgrade Pashalik, Vojvodina and Kosovo-Metohija.
What do you mean that Serbs are not respecting Albanians in Presevo, Medvedje and Bujanovac. They've got almost everything, I know I've been there. But no, the Albanians want even more.

Titan said...

cvijus, I see you're young and can't analyze the problem, that's ok. We do not perceive your country as racist, eventhough a big group in your society cound be classified as racitsts -(...frequent attacs on hungarians in their land in Vojvodina).
We all know about 2 million people that expelled milosevic from the power, good for you all.
However, if you place your nation aside good boys, then you should publicly apologize to Slovenians, Croatians, Bosnians and Albanians for that what your parents did!
- Your country should protect its people from economicly deretrorating and this would be your country national interest!

Regards.

illyrianboy said...

Ivan,

you find one credible source that says Serbs were a majority in Kosovo ever! The burden of proof is on the Serbian side. The Serbs came in the 6th century. The Albanians were always there. We don't have to prove that.

This Tito thing is really funny. Tito just snapped is fingers and all of a sudden 2 million Albanians appeared in Kosovo! WOW! The fact that you believe fairytales like that proves that I shouldn't be debating anything with you.

Cvijus

I was right, you should check out some real news sources. I can't believe you don't know about the Swiss Foreign Minister's declaration. She even said that in Belgrade in an official visit.

I know the media situation in Serbia is bad, but I didn't think it was that bad. I guess it has gotten worse after Milosevic, instead of improving.

Cvijus011 said...

To Titan,

Do you define of being a patriot as being a racist? then I guess that also a big part of the Albanian society in Kosovo-Metohija is exactly the same, thus we are dealing with to racist nations.
You say we should apologize. Ok, we admit we did mistakes, but I think that of all of the nations you mentioned should also apologize because they weren't the innocient sheaps we were slaughtering. More than 500.000 refugees (UN statistics) in Serbia can concur that not only the Serbs were bad gyus. Thank God my parents were not involved in this story, but assigning the actions of individuals to a whole nation is equaly rasistic and chauvinistic.

To Illirianboy,

Here's a little reading assignment to you to see who was before on Kosovo-Metohija

Robert Kaplan - Balkan Ghosts
Misha Glenny - Balkans 1804-1999
dame Rebecca West - Of black owls and grey eagles.

As you see they are all foreign authors and very well established in the international intellectual elite.

Does your "always" also include the dinosaur age? Keep in mind that there is no scientifical proof which shows the connection between the Illyrians and the Albanians.

Tito openned the borders with Albania and introduced a law which forbid to the Serbian refugees from the second world war to return to Kosovo-Metohija (under the occupation of the Italian Albania). Tito did this in order to attract the Albanian government to create a Balkan federation, also with Bulgaria. This plan failed after Tito reject to sing the Warsaw pact in 1948.Concider that in that period the average Albanian family had a lot children.

At least you should be gratefull to Tito and raise him a statue, since he gave you everything and from us he took away all.

Titan said...

cvijus, if you conclude that thousands of 'racists' that fought on these latest wars were patriots including here the groups attacking hungarians in their land in Vojvodina then you're concluding that your country is chauvinistic. Serbs fought in Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo (all Serbia's neighbors) what would this be? Patriotism?!!

I think you shloud get over with last decade changes!

It looks like Vojvodina and Sandzak are next! Let's see how they'll act at these new scenes.

Regards.

Cvijus011 said...

To Titan,

You're talking about homogeinity in every nation, thus, also in every army. But yould you call those people who were mobilised by force as racists? Would you also call the people of very low education and of idealistic motives as racists? I agree that a great majority of the fighters had racist motives, but you shouldn't genralize every single thing. Also, the Albanians always characterize every action of the serbian government in keeping Kosovo as racist. The Serbian government is just protecting its interest. Just note that if the government were racist than we would have another war, in the worst case. I think taht the Serbs have proven in the 5th of October 2000 how much racist they are by overthrowing a racist government.
You keep talking about vojvodina and Sandzak. What in God's name do you know what is happening there? Do you call some grafitis as violent attacks? What can we say than about the behavior of the Albanians in Kosovo-Metohija toward the Serbs? Do you also characterize the fact that the minister for human and minority rights is Bosniak as discrimination? So you also call it the bilingual administration in areas with Hungarian majority as discrimination? Do (you also call the fact that a Serb was found last year beaten up and with a stick in his arse (all done by Hungarians who even confesed) as Serbian racism? Is it also discriminating that in the police there are also Hungarians?

ivan said...

titan,

1. Vojvodina, I think Cvijus stated most of the statements i wanted to, but i would just like to add the fact, from a personal level. I have been to Vojvodina, and I talked to people who were not Serbs. I asked them if they feel discriminated? Do you know whay the answer was, NO. In town Vrsac, Albanians, Hungarians , Romanians and Serbs all live happily with each other. They all practice their own religions, they all go together to school. work and there is no discrimination. Now let me ask you one question? Can the serbs go to churches in Kosovo and Methija without the UNMIK forces protecting them? Why are Orthodox churches destroyed by the side of Albanians? Do the Erbs in Kosovo and Metohija have freedom of movement at all?

2. Sandzak, do you know who were the richest individuals during 90s when the war in Bosnia was at is peak? People from Sandzak? Aks, anybody from Sandzak if they have been tortured by the Serbians during 90s, when it was known that they were financially supporting the Bosnian Army? Even under the racist regime of Milosevic, they were not attacked or manipulated. They did their own business, they were allowed and still are to pracice their own religion, and nobody eever attacked them. Probably you are thinking now, oh yes another serbian propaganda, but then ask yourself, one of ther main political figures of Serbian politics today is Rasim Lajlic. He enjoys the majority votes of Bosniak population in Serbia. He did not complain of any ill treatment of Serbs towards Bosniaks. Now regarding you so called peacefull albanians in Kosovo and Metohija, how many Serbian business are able to conduct business in Prishtina? I personally know Bosniaks who tried to conduct business in Prishtina, and they got killed because they spoke Bosniak ( very similair nto Serbian) with each other in Prishtina.

As I stated before, if you albanians treated Serbs in Kosovo and Metohija, the way Serbia is treating its minorities, you would have had independence long time ago and even Serbia would have recognized you as an independent coutnry. But due to your barbaric culture and hatretism, Serbia with its concious government can not just let 300,000 Serbian people be masacred.

illyrianboy said...

Cvijus

you need to do some serious reading buddy. You are NOBODY to give me reading assignments!

How the hell can you say Balkan Ghosts is a credible book?! You should be ashamed. You are from the Balkans and you think a book that is full of racism against all Balkan people is credible! This is outrageous. Dude, you need some critical thinking.

And why are you beating a dead horse here. It is fact that Serbs came here in 6th century. And Illyrans were here at least 2 millenia before that. And there is no scientific proof to say that Albanians are not descendants of Illyrians. At the same time there is scientific and real life proof that Albanians are descendants of Illyrians. SO STOP BEATING A DEAD HORSE.

And, what the hell do you mean when you say "Albanian families were large"? I don't see the conection. As you said yourself the border between Yougoslavia and Albania was relatively open for 3 years ONLY! from 1945 to 1948. And no one can say that there was a huge flux of people who moved into Kosovo. At the same time, it is true that Tito didnt allow the Serbian colonists to go back to Kosovo. But they were colonists sent there by the government. So that was not their home anyway. Just like the refugees from Krajina who were sent to Kosovo, can't claim that Kosovo is their home and don't have a right to come back.

And stop bitching about Tito. So typical of Serbs.

Ivan
99% of what you say doesnt make sense.

And you are bragging that the Minister for MINORITIES is Bosniak. Give me a break!

Mir said...

So let me get this straight... Kosovo should be Albania's land... because they lived on it... 2000+ years ago (assuming they are an extinct race called Illyrians)?

Glad to see you are on the logical side. Once Kosovo is independent lets work towards giving Texas back to Mexico. Hell, let's work on moving all Americans back into UK and give back all the land to the Native Americans... since it WAS theirs before.

Good logic.

The damn WORD 'kosovo' is Serbian. Kos = blackbird.

There was bad guys on BOTH sides, I believe that most Serbians can accept that we were responsible for many criminal slaughters. However, the Kosovo Albanians seem to have a hard time accepting their end of the story also.

Both sides must accept they both did some bad things and get over it. And there has to be appeasement for both sides or another war will happen, which means partitioning. We're not even asking for 50+% of the land. We're asking for the tiny piece where Serbians are barely surviving, and you wont even return that piece to us.

As far as Vojvodina goes, people need to remember autonomy and independence are two different things. That region makes most of the domestic food for the rest of Serbia. So I really dont see why anyone in Vojvodina would ask for independence. They make money from us buying their foods and we provide them government. Its a symbiotic relationship.

However even if they did want independence I wouldn't have a problem with it. That region earned that right long ago IMO. But I seriously doubt they will ask for independence any time soon.

-Mitar

ivan said...

Ilyrianboy,

did you read any of the books Cvijus has posted to you? I dont think so.
I agree with Mir's logic. The last documented reference, indicates that Serbs were majority in Kosovo and Metohija, so everything else before that are fairy tales. Or maybe you will prove that first the Albanians came to earth and then the dinosaurs?

When you say 99% of my comments dont make sense, please give me valid arguments.

Mir said...

And I can't stand this "Serbian version of Kosovo is a lie" arguement. We know that we weren't the only ones on that field in 1389. It was a Chrisitian Alliance that had leaders and nobility from many countries but the MAIN LEADERS AND MAJORITY OF THE FIGHTING FORCE was Serbian.

Our "version" is the version seen in our poetry. It is dramatization and it is more of a symbolistic story rather than factual document. Even the Turkish documents referred to the enemy as "Serbian". We did not "rewrite" history just because we have a poetic version of it with some "religious" aspects.

I don't care if Albanians have Kosovo. There is no other legal option at this point that would end in no violence. I simply do not like that they are spraying grafitti 'UCK' on Serbian tombstones, calling the land a Serbian word/name yet claiming it was always Albanian, denying that we had any history in that region (specifically that we ever lived there or fought for it), and destroying our churches. I am not religious but it is wrong to destroy a spiritual/tradional place like a church.

You came into OUR country because yours was a POS yet you had NO intent to make yourself useful to our society or follow the established laws. I really do hope you have a happy life in Kosovo so that you don't need to go farther north into Serbia. If you dont enjoy Kosovo Ill likely need a passport in 5 years to go from Belgrade to Krusevak.

-Mitar

illyrianboy said...

Mir,

it is the Serbians who actually try to invoke medieval history (1389) to claim Kosovo. So this logic that you are trying to refute is the logic used by the Serbs. So I am really glad that some Serbs actually agree that this logic shouldnt be used. Me and Cvijus were discussing that, but that was not to say that is the reason why Kosovo should be independent.

In case you don't know, Kosovar Albanian arguments are based on the fact that 92% of people are Albanian, they have right for self-determination, and Serbia has lost any right to rule Kosovo especially during the last war.

And, please dont say "you came to our country". Stuff like this makes the discussion go back to history. Again, discussing about who was in Kosovo first, is beating a dead horse.

And I don't know why you guys keep bringing up the issue of the name Kosovo. Who cares. There is an Albanian version about the origin of the name but it doesnt matter. A lot of place-names in Serbia, Kosovo, Albania, Macedonia are Slavic, not because of Serbs or Macedonians but because of the Bulgarians. For example there is a city in Albania called Berat which comes from Belgrad. That is the Bulgarian name from the Bulgarian conqeust in the middle ages. So please don't obsess about the name.

The problem about the Battle of Kosovo is that many historian try to prove the poetic version in Serbia and the politicians try to sell it for fact. It is OK to have legends, we do too. But fact is different. And nobody denies that the leader was Serbian and most of the troops were Serbian.

Also, no one denies the Serbian history in Kosovo. But you should understand that history in Kosovo didn't begin with the Serbian Kingdom. And we are pissed off by the Serbian chauvinistic 'history' which tries to wipe out anything Non-Serbian about Kosovo.

Sounds like you are advocating partition of Kosovo. My opinion is if three Serb municipalities are to join Serbia, three Albanian municipalities in south Serbia should join Kosovo.

Ivan,

you still don't make sense. How can I give an opinion about a book if I didnt read the book. Clearly, it is you who lacks a literary/academic background. So, again (for the 2732732th time), start reading something else besides Serbian nationalistic websites.

Ciao

Mir said...

-------------
Part 1
Okay. Lets look at what happens if Kosovo gets 'more than autonomy less than independence'. Do you follow through with peace and trying to set up a 'more than autonomous' government in Kosovo peacefully? Or do you call in the UCK and KLA?

While I am impressed that you saw flaw in my old history logic (didn't realize I was breaking my own logic partially) 1389 is still alot closer then 2000 years ago. There were many documents to support something that happened 600 years ago. While something from 2000+ years ago would require a more fossils and speculation than direct evidence.

Another thing I wonder is WHY Kosovo? You have Albania and Kosovo is anything but "beautiful land". Why is it so important to get Kosovo rather than improve conditions in Albania itself?

Just like you found flaw in my time logic I find one in yours. Kosovo maybe 92% Albanian (around 1,800,000 people right?) but it is a state WITHIN Serbia. Seeing as Serbia combined is 10,000,000 people we would have to assume that while 1.8 million Albanians want Kosovo independent about 8,000,000 Serbians wouldn't want that.

So we cant quite use your 'population' logic like we cant use my time logic. If we could San Antonio, Texas would be independent since it is predominantly Mexican. I think we need to stop using these artifical 'reasons' such as history, populations, propaganda, racism, and admit what the real problem is.

The real problem is wether there will be peace in the Balkans. if you put populations, government, racism, guerillas, and all those factors aside... and give Kosovo independence, will there be peace for BOTH sides? The situation in Kosovo isnt just about independence. To the West it is about bringing peace to a region that was engulfed in war (mainly due to Milosevic).

Can there be peace (between the nations) in the Balkans?

---------------
Part2:
I think a problem here is Serbia. Not a 'bad' problem neccesarilly. We want to BE SERBIA. Serbia where Serbs live. However in todays world basically at some point every country is becoming an 'international' country like US,UK, Australlia, etc. When we fought our wars about 200 years ago (not using time logic here) we were fighting for OURSELVES not an ideal. We basically fought to stay Serbian. But in the United States for instance, they were fighting for the ideal of international religious freedom and democracy.

We want to be who we are. But how can we keep Kosovo (which is a part of who we are in a way) when it has 92% isn't Serbian. Kosovo's resolution sets a problem for Serbia. To try and remain 'Serb'. Or become a more international EU-like country. The results of Kosovo will mean alot more than just 'independece' for Albanians.

-Mitar

Cvijus011 said...

illyrian boy,

i agree that the "balkan ghosts" is a bit discriminating book, but read the chapter about kosovo-metohija to see what the westerners think whose kosovo-metohija was. besides, now kaplan is not good enough for you? but when he was advocating for your cause he was perfect? albanian double standards.

Now the thing about the illyrians brings as to a dead end. but for the scientific society a more credible proof is something that proves a connection between two nations, than nothing that doesn't prove anything.

i said that the plan of the balkan federation failed in 1948, but the borders were still open. that with the large families i told you for you to figure out how come there is such a big albanian population in kosovo-metohija.

the law was for the serbian refugees, not colonists. in that period, colonists were going to vojvodina and sumadija (mostly kragujevac). me personally, i know some of those refugees and they told how was kosovo-metohija ethnically structured before the second world war, such arguments you can find at glenny's and west's books.

at least i gave you some sources and you gave nothing.

the minister for the minorities is rasim ljajic, check at www.humanrights.gov.co.yu

denying that much tito's achienments for indicates a subsnscious awareness of that fact.

illyrianboy said...

Mir,

The "more than autonomy..." option is a very hypocritical one and I can talk in lenght about it, but not now. Remember that Albanians don't want to live within Serbia so this option is not going to happen.

Now the time thing. When we talk about time you should remember that the only things that matter are the things that happened during modernity. That is 18th, 19th century. An argument based in antiquity is as good as an argument based in middle ages. So the Albanian argument about Illyrians can be crossed out by the Serbian argument about 1389, or vice versa.

People. Kosova was a seperate entity throughout the time so you can't use that argument. It is like saying the whole Yugoslav population should have voted in the referendum about Slovenian independence. Only the Kosovar population is allowed to vote in a referendum about Kosovos future.

Why do you talk about "make things better in Albania". This is really strange to me, I don;t know whhy u talk about that. We are not Albanian citizens and Albania is not our country. We are Kosovo citizens and we want to become independent so we can improve things in Kosovo.

Yes there can be peace in the Balkans but it takes visionary leaders and a good economy.

I don;t know what u mean in Part two. You should understand that the Serbian state can't cover all places where serbs live. This was the logic behind Milosevics war.

Cvijus I'll get back to you later

gtg

illyrianboy said...

Cvijus

I am not familiar with the fact that Kaplan ever advocated for Albanians. I still think his book is racist. That is towards Balkan people in general.

You shold check your sources again about 1948. The closing of borders didnt have to do anything with the plans for a Balkan federation. The borders between ALbania and Yugoslavia were closed hermetically in 1948.

I dont know what you mean when you talk about colonists going to Shumadija. There is no need for colonists to go to there cos that was already a region inhabited by Serbs. The colonists were mainly sent to Kosovo between two world wars.

I think you need to explain what you mean by "colonists" and by "serbian refugees".

And you are not saying what they told you was the ethnic composition of Kosovo before WWII.

I suggest you read the most authoritative book about Kosovo, that is Kosovo: A short history by Noel Malcolm.

Dude, I know that Rasim Ljajic is the minister for minorities and human rights! You apparently missed my point from the previous post.

And, let me remind you that Kosovo was used as a colony during Tito. So , the "achievements" you talk about benefited the Yugoslav economy more than they benefited the people of Kosovo. Remember the saying "Trepca radi, Beograd se gradi"? That explains a lot.

ciao

Mir said...

http://www.rastko.org.yu/kosovo/crucified/default.htm

Innocent sheep my ass. No one is innocent on any side in war.

We must swallow our pride and look each other in the truthfully in the eye, and shake hands. For the sake of the world not just us. Or another war will break out.

-Mitar

illyrianboy said...

You can't compare state sponsored genocide with vandalism Mir.

Remember this!

Mir said...

Vandalism? You tore down churches older than your entire country. Maybe we just value history more I guess. Do a google search on Serbian Orthodox Church and find the pictures of the priests with unrecognizable bloodied faces.

I wanted to believe Serbians are innocent just like you want to believe Albanians are. But NO ONE is innocent in war. NO ONE.

-Mitar

illyrianboy said...

Mir, you are really confused. The Serbian orthodoxs churches were vandalizes AFTER the war. And I'm not saying that is a good thing, but that tells you how much Serbia were popular among the local people.

So, don't try to play the "everyone did crimes" card, which the Serbian institutions are playing. It is not working obviously.

Mir said...

This has nothing to do with institutions. It is a simple principle of war which I thought you would understand.

-Mitar

Titan said...

cvijus, ivan

FYI -- wake up!!


http://www.b92.net/info/vesti/index.php?yyyy=2005&mm=12&dd=21&nav_id=183097&nav_category=12

Kristian said...

To all of you guys: interesting points of view from both sides.

One thing about the balkans that intrigues me is this: on the computer you can say anything you want and you get mad or don't and can express your point of view, but what happens if you were all in the same room? A: You would either kill each other to defend your point of view B: Hurt each other as much as possible and if you lost would vow revenge and a non stop cycle would be created

What happened to democracy?

I like the serbian argument that "oh kosovo/a is our cradle of our origin"! Last time I checked the balkans were part of Byzantium. The majority of the population in that region (especially KOSOVO/A how ever you want to call it) were Christian and most importantly no one can give exact figures but I'm assuming mostly Orthodox.

If we take this to be true, then some of those churches that ppl argue about could of been Albanian Orthodox churches. No one can truly say bc there are no records to substantiate this. But the Question is always there and needs to be explored.

The Battle of Kosovo/a is an ironic battle. The serbs faught, so did the albanians, and so did many other nations, tribes, and clans. You have to remember at this time there was no state put tribes, clans, and principalites. And ppl joined forces only when they saw a great threat otherwise they were hacking each other for whatever land they could.

And the other thing that historians always talk about: The population was predonimantly serbian but spoke Albanian (in Kosovo/a). So what were these people? Albanian or Serbian? Serbians argue they were serbian but were assimulated to albanian. (Read about the Balkan wars and serbian, bulgarias, and greece's statistics of the region of Kosovo/a and Macedonia's population and ethnicity)

If memory serves me right during the balkan wars the main objective was to grab land mass. The serbs and the greeks came up with a wise plan to open up schools/churches (excluding the old church sites, which are not many that are original) in the regions and show the west look we have schools here and bc of this --this is our land and the greeks did the same. The Bulgarians were screwed of their land and the Albanians also. How do you explain Greece growing 2/3rds in size and bulgaria shrinking a 1/3.

Then the serbs had a great plan of removing/exterminating all albanians from the province in the 1800-1900's. Great Idea but didn't work, albanians have to many fucking kids as mentioned by one writer above.

Now the albanians argue that they were there before the slavs. And they were! The serb government agrees to this officially but say that they were originally further east (thesolanica(mispelled)). The question of: were the albanians the descendants of Illyrians that is a matter of debate, but no historian has ever said that they are not and proved it, nor do they have refutable evidence that they are.

The albanians also argue that they were repressed way before the war started. In 1989 their autaunomy was abolished. For 10 yrs their president tried to do things peacefully but eventually "THE PEOPLE" were tired of waiting and seeing no results. In the region of Kosovo/a there were more police/army personal per capita then in any other region in Ex-yugo.

They were actually discriminated economically since 1980. Since the first riots started which caused great concern for serbia. As every other republic and province was growing economically the economy of Kosovo was declining. Belgrade made sure of this and in 1989 the kosovo/a economy was below the nation of Yugoslavia by 30% if I remember from the economic reports from belgrade. How do you supress a ppl, you do it by economics, just like the turks did it before the yugoslav goverment did, but the only problem was they weren't given an alternative. During turkish times you changed faith so you didn't have to pay taxes or as much taxes as the non-muslims. The only choice the Yugoslav goverment gave to Kosovo/a was to flee the region. Serb and Albanian alike fled to other parts of Ex-Yugoslavia or other nations around the world for economic reasons not bc of the political or social situation. The claims that Albanians were threatning serbs was not entirely true,(that was overly exaggerated by politicians) it was mere economics. It wasn't worth staying in Kosovo/a when you could go to any other republic and make more.

Under the 1974 constitution Kosovo/a had the same rights as any republic in Yugoslavia. And if we look at things from the point of LAW, then Yugoslavia does not exist anymore, every republic and province had a right to become independent. I believe the last president of Yugoslavia made it clear in 1991 that Yugoslavia is no more.

Even though the autaunomy of Kosovo/a was taken by the ex-Yugo government, once the government was abolished in 1991, Serbia/Montenegro government can't claim any rights to it. Its a province but if the nation is gone so are the borders. This is based from a law point of view.

Milosovic wanted a greater SERBIA, which destabalized a whole region and made the ppl of Serbia, Bosnia, Kosovo/a, and Macedonia suffer. These regions are in worse shape then they were prior to 1991. And for what? GREED! It has nothing to do with Idealism, Nationalism, protecting the people, it always boils down to money/land.

If Kosovo/a does not get independence then are serbs willing to give equal rights to the Albanians of Kosovo in their government? For by the year 2030 the majority of the population of Serbia/Montenegro will be Albanian. If they are, then will they share power with the Albanians in the future?

Mathematically the whole balkan region is a lose lose situation from whatever nationalistic point of view you take. Without stability there are no gains.

The main goal of both parties should be to come to a resolve! Peacefully! If Kosovo/a does get its full independence then a goverment should be created that is all inclusive of all the ppl of that new formed nation.

History should be protected at all costs. Burning of churches/mosks should stop and ppl should learn to live with each other and swollow their pride and think of their kids futures. Education should be a top priority, with education you can overcome a lot of obstacles (steryotyping, cultural understaning, and respect for each other). Lastly is development of the region and infrastructure.

I hope that God (muslim,orthodox, or christian--remember we all have the SAME GOD THAT WE BELIEVE IN) will show us the light in these dark times. And show us the benefits and prosperity of what we can do together as a ppl then fighting over things that just waste energy, incite racism, and decay the moral of the ppl in the region.

Here is to peace and an end to violence and racism.