Sunday, June 18, 2006

Tensions with Serbs raise fears over links with EU

Tensions with Serbs raise fears over links with EU

Concerns are mounting that Serbia could break with the west because of tensions over unfulfilled obligations to the international community.

The country's lack of progress in arresting and transferring Gen Ratlo Mladic, an indicted war criminal, is a key stumbling block, but European Union diplomats also fear Russian backing for hardliners in Serbia who question the need – or the inevitability – of a "European future" for south-eastern Europe.

There was a "sense of urgency concerning Serbia" at an EU summit in Brussels last week that discussed ways of bolstering ties with Belgrade, according to one person who was present.

Foreign ministers in attendance warned that the EU needed to prevent Serbia from "falling into nationalism" and had to ensure that the country was not "lost."

"An important consideration is keeping Serbia in the right direction as a country, not driving away from the EU and towards extreme behaviour," said a UK official. But he emphasised that Belgrade also had to live up to its commitments.

Last month the EU stopped negotiations on a stabilisation and association agreement with Belgrade – widely seen as a step towards EU membership – over Serbia's failure to apprehend Mr Mladic.

Since then, Belgrade has seen Montenegro, formerly the junior partner in a federation with Serbia, win recognition as a sovereign state.

Serbia also faces losing its province of Kosovo this year, since the world's big powers intend to resolve the territory's "final status" and largely favour independence for the ethnic Albanian majority.

Against such a backdrop, Serbia's ultranationalist Radical party has gained strength, registering 40 per cent in a recent poll, amid disillusionment with the governing coalition of largely pro-EU "democratic forces".

But prime minister Vojislav Kostunica, a moderate nationalist, also received a shot in the arm last week in Moscow, where he met Vladimir Putin, Russia's president. Mr Kostunica came out of the meeting "extremely satisfied", said officials in his government.

At the EU foreign ministers' meeting at the summit, Olli Rehn, EU enlargement commissioner, urged deeper economic and trade links with Serbia while the association talks are in limbo.

The Commission also favours relaxing visa rules for Serbian nationals, although this may be scaled down to a scheme reducing red tape for Serbian students following opposition from countries such as France.

Mr Rehn has also proposed a plan to help Serbia co-operate with the United Nations tribunal on the former Yugoslavia, which has demanded Mr Mladic's transfer over crimes connected with the 1995 Srebrenica massacre.

Copyright 2006 Financial Times

52 comments:

tironsi said...

Why do I take these sort of articles as laying the groundwork for not recognizing Kosova's independence? There seems to be another faction in the EU that really wants to play nice with Serbia. You don't play nice with a rabid dog, you put it down. And by that I don't mean the people of Serbia, but the people that lead them. How can these Radicals still enjoy so much support? Have they done such a good job in the past that Serbs continue to reward them? Should they start another war to get some better ratings in the polls?

Cvijus011 said...

19 June 2006 | 09:52 | Source: Beta
OBILIĆ -- Unknown vandals demolished a church in the centre of Obilić, Kosovo and Metohija Radio reported.

According to reports, four crosses were removed from the church and taken, as was the chimney on the right side of the church and part of the roofing.

Municipal Coordinator in Obilić Mirče Jakovljević said that this is yet another attack on everything that is Serbian in Obilić. Jakovljević said that the church vandalism is yet another argument that proves that the international community cannot and does not have the power to stop such acts.

“This is further evidence that Serbs need new municipalities in order to stay here. If this does not happen, then villages such as Obilić will be ethnically clean very soon. We are questioning whether KFOR is prepared to secure safety and security for us and our children.” Jakovljević said.

No one from the Kosovo Police Service was willing to comment on the incident. This same church in Obilić was set on fire on March 18, 2004.

Dardania 2006 said...

Cvijus,

Your crime is greater. Far greater to be imagined. Murder, rape, genocide, ethnic cleansing, all contain Serb with them.

Now that is to say, I don't care but please for the sake of all of us in Europe, move on, start LIVING.

Cvijus011 said...

Dardania,

The crimes that were done in the past don't allow you to shut your eyes on the crimes that are now happening. Instead of condemning them, you marginalize them and that is not the way things are done in Europe in which you claim you want to live in.

Get your grips mate and start working of crating a tolerant and democratic society, which also means that such crimes should disappear.

Or maybe you base your "democracy" on the marginalization of other ethnic groups as Albania is doing?

mitrovica pika pika said...

Serbs used as an excuse the murder of muslims in Bosnia, the world war II crimes of some muslim collaborators and the same thing in Kosova. But now speak of war of 99 as if it had happened 100 years ago. Convinient isnt it.

Cvijus011 said...

Isn't it even more convenient to torch a church, kill children and elder while crying how Serbs were killing you? Is that how you want to build your future? If yes, then everything will just turn in circles.

I believe that the situation is that we are stuck together whether we like it or not and instead of killing each other it would be more constructive for all of us to leave the past to the past and start working together for our well-being. This is the only way to prevent future tragedies.

Sacred Dardanicum said...

I wonder to know where is the Church located because I have witnessed Servians lying about churches damaged especially in Gjilan area.

So open your eyes because I do really know what makes Tanjug how do they create news. I wonder how is going to react tanjug when Kosovo gets independence. Would they omit that news or simply bypass so it nothing happened

Sacred Dardanicum said...

cvijous011 have ever been to Kosovo to see the reality not the reality that RTS gives because if you listen only RTS news it will make newses just like they made during the war on Kosovo. RTS propagated propaganda since it has been created.

Beogradski pasaluk je premal da se razume probleme koji je sam uradio.

This year Kosovo will be lost(it has been already lost in Komanova agreement 1999). Next Vojvodina, Sandzak and so on ...

Divide and conquer

Do you know that Mirče Jakovljević isn't located at all in Kosovo. So how it is possible to be a municipal coordinator as long as at least you don't live in that municipality. Oh how it would be good so you would be the municipal coordinator for Paris or New York but as long as you don't live over there there is no chance to be municipal coordinator.

mitrovica pika pika said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
mitrovica pika pika said...

"I believe that the situation is that we are stuck together whether we like it or not and instead of killing each other it would be more constructive for all of us to leave the past to the past and start working together for our well-being. This is the only way to prevent future tragedies."

Peace and harmony, while rapists and murederers roam free in serbia, are absurd notions.

NYoutlawyer said...

What gives albos the right to destroy no-muslim religious houses of worship. This is an act of evil against the Christian religion, not Serbians.

It will take albos a century to arrive to the 21st century. That's about right, they are usually 100 years behind in the social develpoment of the rest of the world.

Keep it up though, the Western leaders read the news too. Is the pro-independence tide starting to turn a bit? Let's wait and see.

mitrovica pika pika said...

"Is the pro-independence tide starting to turn a bit? Let's wait and see."


Dream on little bitch!

NYoutlawyer said...

So typical albo, someone makes a comment they don't like, and the reply is insulting name calling. Just shows your intelligence level, i.e., lack of it.

mitrovica pika pika said...

The whole world uses rape, massmurder and concentration camps as a synonymous with the sewerbs. you have done nazis a favour.

Chris Blaku said...

Cvijus, after setting the Balkans ablaze for a decade and killing nearly a million, your people are left to post articles on stolen crosses. So much for the great destinies of the Serb people.

Additionally, why should the EU defend Serbia from its apparent true nature? If it's falling into nationalism, then that is the will of its people, as it is a democracy, of sorts. The Serbians have been ardent nationalists since the Russians liberated them and the Orthodox Church rewrote their history for them. They celebrate their losses and kill their neighbors, does the EU really think they can advert the inevitable for this nation, where 50% of the population failed to finish grade school? I'd venture to bet Church attendance was higher than school attendance, so it's no wonder you have a nation populated with bigots who blindly chase their dream of a greater Serbia.

Chris Blaku said...

Additionally NY, you also have an impartial peacekeeping force in place in Kosova, the United Nations KFOR group, who is responsible for conducting non-biased inquiries into acts of inter-ethnic violence. Surprisingly enough, their investigations repeatedly conclude that a majority of these crimes have no ethnic bias behind them, but of course the Serbian politicians in Belgrade that love the Serbians in Kosova so, beg to differ and use it as a propaganda tool to incite hate, which is more popular among the Serbians than peace.

Do you know that it is illegal for the 250,000+ Albanians that occupy the Presheva valley region to fly an Albanian flag? Where is your sense of democracy and equality for them? No bleeding hearts?

NYoutlawyer said...

Why should they fly the albanian flag, it's not albania. What the fuck do you people want? I don't fly the Montenegren flag in NY, why, because it's not Montenegro

BTW, seems anytime albos commit an act of vandalism, it's Belgrade's propoganda, are you trying to say Orthodox churches are not being desecrated by albanian kosovars?. You people even throw stones at UN vehicles because you suspect Serbians are riding in them.

guess that's the multiethnic community ceku is seeking. Get real.

Cvijus011 said...

You people seem unable to get over anything and ironically you embrasse European values.
Look at the European history and especially France and Germany. They hated each other but now they are the guiding forces of the EU. Why wouldn't something like that be possible between Serbs and albanians?

Btw, Serbs and nazis synonymes for concetration camps, did you ever think about Guantanamo Bay?

mitrovica pika pika said...

Fuck you and fuck you and fuck you . Fuck nouhouselawer for being a fucking bipolar at times you want to be undersood and people not to hate you for what you are and then compare albanians of presheva wih immigrants and dont even recognize their basic rights which you want for serbs in Kosova. Fuck the cvi,ivana twins for bs-ing all the time ,firs you want albanians to somehow dissapear and you dont want to acknoledge crimes your kind committed and now use the peace and reconciliation bs. you want reconciliation because you lost motherfucker.
Fuck you EU for placating these fucking rapists and giviing them half of bosnia and northern Kosova and if it wasnt for Clark they would have had much more if he didnt see through the russian bs. And last but no least fuck us albanians for starting something and not having the balls to go through wih it. We had freedom in our hand bu we substitued for some incompetent paedophiles, thieves and war criminals from shitholes where they dont even have cars or phones and let alone being seen as real human beings. you cant start a fucking war believing that you should stop in the middle and wait for some sewerbeing bitches to accpet your independence or shit like that when they wanted o anihilate you 7 years ago. If here are no guns blazing i doesn mean the war is over.

Cvijus011 said...

Mitrovica,

Peace, love and harmony

ANYC said...

You people seem unable to get over anything and ironically you embrasse European values.

Cvujus-that has to be one of the most proposturous statements on this blog. A serb talking about European values, is like a nazi talking about enjoying jewish spirituality.

Let's do a reality check here:
1. Your state is a cause of over 250,000 dead people as late as 10 years ago.
2. You have created more refuges(including your own) that anything Europe has seen since WWII- again in the last 10 years.
3. You harbor war criminals and refuse to take accountibility for crimes commited.
4. You country is ruled by radicals who are elected DEMOCRATICALLY

Now talk about European values...

NYoutlawyer said...

You dickhead albos just want to blame ALL Serbians for the actions of Milosevic and his gang. That is the same way Bin-laden held All Americans accountable for the actions of it's politicians.

There is NO hope here, the hate is too deep. Go ahead and fucking self-destruct albos, I don't give a rat's ass.

ANYC said...

NY lawayer...has your medication run out again. Off to pharmacy you must go now old man. Stack up on your pills as you have become noncoherent again.
Millosevic was a byproduct of Serbia-not the other way around. It was their nationalism that supported his rise and his crimes. Remeber Milosevic and his gang did not burn and ravage Balkans personally. It was rather the local Kserbs that enlisted voluntary and conscripts from all over that did those deeds. And quite meticolously I might add. So don't use Milosevis as a scapegoat-as this crime has its roots deep within your serb nation.
Now off you go....

NYoutlawyer said...

anyc, are you Serbian or albo? How the fuck would you know what is in the Serbian psychy?

Serbians have a historic dislike of albos because they committed war crimes for the nazis during WWII. Do you know that part of Balkan history?

Not that I condone it but, once that ball of war started rolling, guess it was payback. Got Mladic in some deep shit.

Lots of albos, including this blog site, are out for payback against Serbians now too. Just roll-reversal.

Fatos said...

It is in everyone's interest to not let Serbia remain a nationalist country. Even Albanians should do all they can to help their neighbors move on and show them a better world. It is clear that Serbs have had many setbacks recently, which may very easily give them the idea that the only best way forward is going backwards. It will be a hassle for all of us in Europe to deal with a country where weapons are used as the only means for solving issues.

NYoutlawyer said...

Well put Fatso.

ANYC said...

Serbians have a historic dislike of albos because they committed war crimes for the nazis during WWII. Do you know that part of Balkan history?

Nylawyer-you are embarrasing yourself now and serb nation as well. Serbs started a genocide well before WWII. If you dont believe me check my blog and see what MR Cubrilovic wrote before WWII had even started.It is even translated in english for ignorants like you who dont know their mother tounge.
So sad you have to take a lesson in your own history from Albanians. But that is what you have become- a blithering old fool.

ivan said...

Siptari,

I would like to share with you a positive experience I had. In my work we got a new co worker who is a Kosovo Albanian. We really had a nice chat, and regarding Kosovo she told me that she does not believe that the people are ready for independence, because of the extremism. Her words were that only Rugova could make a democratic society in Kosovo and Metohija, but Ceku and Tashi are too radical and extreme to be able to contribute to democratization of the Kosovo society. We both agreed that there isn’t one politician in Balkans who would be able to contribute peace to the region.

This summer she is going to Montenegro for vacation. She will drive through Serbia and will stay for a day in Belgrade. I was really happy to hear that. But when I asked her if I could go to Pristina, she told me not to be crazy. I would just end up dead.

These are the words from a Kosovo Albanian who grew up in Germany, and as she says she still considers herself Yugoslav. And when she tells this to the Albanians in Kosovo and Metohija , she sais that sometimes she fears for her life.

Reading your comments like “We Europeans should ….bla bla to Serbia”, confuses me totally. After talking to her and all the Kosovo Serbs in Kosovska Mitrovica and having spend all of my life in Europe, I realize that you siptars have no idea what the concept of human rights means.

Konaction said...

Ivan,

You should work for Tanjug man. Stop spreading propagandas around. There's NO Kosovar that speaks in that way about Kosova (period). It's not about patriotism it's about reality here. We will protect all the churches and all the cultural heritage that belongs to Kosova, cause it's Kosovars. Be sure on this!
It suprises me when I see such news (Obiliq Church) from coordination center in B92 news agency, it supossed to be an independent one but it seems nationalism got through your souls from whatever you are to whatever you may be.

The great "Astral Projection":
"When you dream there are no rules, people can fly, anything can happen"

ivan said...

Konaction,

" There's NO Kosovar that speaks in that way about Kosova (period). "

And what would happen if they do speak like that? Termination? Isolation?

Thats what happened to this girl. She did speak like that, and she almost got killed. HEr parents advised her not to speak any more her mind, because she will not leave KiM alive.

So much for democracy:)

AlbanianThrough&Through said...

Hey Ivan you fucking moronis son of a hoar!
There's no way a person that is 100% Albanian would ever say what this girl or thing apparently said. She's either a creation of your own wharped imagination or a person that is mixed blood and leans towards her slavic/serb side of the family.
I repeat , No ALBANIAN would speak of her people in that way! Nor would they refer to Kosova as "Kosovo and Metohija"!

So curl up and die fucker!

Kosova-re said...

Ivan, she spoke so, she thinks so (although feeling Yugoslav is a bit of an absurd concept, hey but if it helps her to identify and belong...who are we to judge) and she lives to tell the tale.
No one beheaded her?!
-Do not fear...no one will kill her for expressing how she feels and no one will kill you if you walk through streets of Prishtina...she is the wrong person to ask as firstly she lives elsewhere.
Trust me you can pretend you're living in la la land as far as anyone gives a shit.
People have other problems. The day to day ones. And I don't think anyone will be asking you of where your loyalties lie.
It's understandable that she feels the way she feels...cause she hasn't lived in Kosova, but think what you choose to...
-People are free to seek a new identity, create one that is different to the norm, or be it just invent one for the sake of the conversation...maybe this one hasn't crossed your mind?!

ivan said...

She did not refer as to Kosovo as KiM, I refer to it that way.

But your comments show just how fascist your society really is. IF somebody was to think in any other way than the one that is spilled in your heads by the UCK terrorists, they are immediately SERBS, and ofcourse we all know what happens to Serbs in KiM, they get killed.

You keep on criticising Serbia of being a fascist country, but in fact we do have politicains who claim Kosovo should be independent ( Ceda Jovanovic, Goran Svilanovic), and nobody has ever said in Serbia that they are not Serbs. As a matter of fact Ceda Jovanovic is becoming quite popular especially among young people.

Serbia is far away from being a democratic society, but we are much closer than what you siptars are.

Just read your comments about the kosovo albanian girl who grew up in germany who thinks kosovo shouldnt be a fully independent country.

And I am a Serb and I am for you to get the independence, but also Serbs in Kosovo should also get the independence from you.

As mitrovica pika pika said, in more vulgar way but the point is, you sit in your garden and I will sit in my garden. The fence will be our safety. Dont try to occupy my garden.

Konaction said...

We'll install electricity in our fence :)

We're more united than you serbs are and you know it! Beggining from that fact it's me and other bloggers that do not believe the story of your imagination "An Albanian Girl".

I do work together with serbs and they will be more than happy to get the long awaited independence. This can be said by me, can be true too but it's not and it'll never be.

mitrovica pika pika said...

I cant believe some of us albanians are falling for this ivana shit about foreigners or albanians saying to him shit that is all imagined. Get a fucking grip, he comes up with this bs all the time. Personally , the only way serbs and us albanians can live in peace is by having means of mutual anihilation.

ivan said...

"We'll install electricity in our fence :)"

Yes, but you first need electricity for that fence :p

What can I say siptari, its up to you to believe or not, but its the truth. This just shows how you siptars are so brainwashed.

mitrovica pika pika said...

ivana bich, actually it has nothing to do with belief. As you have heard nyouthouselawer talking against montenegro independence so there are albanians who are against Kosova independence. As I have stated before every nation has traitors and albanains, monenegrings are no exception. I mean sewerbs have killed karageorge, betrayed the christian alliance by fighting on the side of the turks, Kraljevic Marko fought Musa Kesejia (albanian) on the order of the turks, Brnakovic fough Scanderbeg when he was on the way to help Huniad, killed your own King and Queen and also your "emperor" Milosevic sold to the Hague. How pathetic is that.

ivan said...

"As you have heard nyouthouselawer talking against montenegro independence so there are albanians who are against Kosova independence"

Good, I am glad that you finally realised that. Good work Mitrovia pika pika

mitrovica pika pika said...

"finally realised that"?
you are so full of shit its not even funny anymore. you say "finall" as if I have claimed otherwise before. Cheap shots dont mean you have an original idea, they are just that, cheap shots. Now go fuck your syphilis infected mother.

ivan said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ivan said...

I have been using this blog for months now, and I really didi enjoy it, because it gave me a chance to understand the opposite sides point of view, as well as to argue different points of views. However with the entrance of mitrovica pika pika, this blog recieved a very primitive atmosphere,

eg,"Now go fuck your syphilis infected mother. "

So I would like to ask all of the albanians as well as the Serbs to declare themselves as to if we to continue in this primitive atmosphere or to stop and raise this blog to a more intelectual level it once was.

Thansk for your support,

Ivan

mitrovica pika pika said...

I will declare first if serbs left this board or jumped of a buidling one thing comes to mind, good riddance.

Serbs In Kosovo are in Danger said...

Serbia needs to focus on its future as a partner of Russia not Serbia hating Europe.

mitrovica pika pika said...

you are right serbia and russia sounds very good. the russians ganga raped every german woman they could find when they took Berlin, serbs did same in Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosova.Rapists should stick together.

AlbanianThrough&Through said...

Hey Ivan...you forgot me "albanian through and through", you silly fuck-face

Bg anon said...

Ivan there are some threads with more abuse than others - like this one, which is why I dont choose to get involved.

I mean this topic not the whole blog. Some visitors to the blog are constuctive but others want to find a bogeyman to blame for everything.

If you really dont want to be involved in it occupy the high ground. That means giving maximum respect to everybody - and no losing patience with that.

mitrovica pika pika said...

Speaking of a bogyeman, here is Serbias.


Bulatovic stated that extremist and criminal activities in the territory of Kosovo are still affecting the entire region and that the safety of the Serb population in the province is significantly threatened.
Bulatovic said that after a longer period of time, Albanian extremists in southern Serbia are again focusing some of their activities on terrorism. Certain individuals who support radical Islam are threatening security in the Raska region, by causing random incidents.
In Vojvodina, extremists from the ranks of the national minorities are using current political processes, the resolution of Kosovo's final status and the dissolution of the state union, to achieve their separatist goals, under the mask of new initiatives, said Bulatovic.
He added that activities undertaken by certain extremist members of the national minorities have been registered in the regions where they have not been reported so far, and that the authorities are also monitoring the neo-Nazi and right-wing groups that are active in Belgrade and Novi Sad.

mitrovica pika pika said...

Former rapists converging in Kosova.

Kosovo Serbs Recruit Former Soldiers for Defense
By BRANISLAV KRSTIC, REUTERS, MITROVICA, SERBIA


Serbs in northern Kosovo have recruited hundreds of former Yugoslav army soldiers to defend them from attacks by ethnic Albanians pushing for independence for the province, Serb officials said on June 20.
It is the latest sign of resistance among the Serb minority in the United Nations-run province to the drive for independence by the two million ethnic Albanian majority. U.N.-led talks look likely to give Kosovo some form of independence before year-end.
Officials in the north, home to 50,000 Serbs, said 385 former Yugoslav reservists had been employed by municipalities to "organize defense in the event of extremist violence."
"We have been forced into such a move because of police ineffectiveness, and the cover-up of crimes and their perpetrators," Zvecan mayor Dragisa Milovic told Reuters. Officially, the "Civil Defence Service" will not be armed.
The north, adjacent to central Serbia, cut ties last month with Albanian authorities in the capital -- a move some analysts said was a precursor to a Serb bid to partition the province.
The Serb police and army, then the Yugoslav army under late strongman Slobodan Milosevic, were forced from Kosovo in 1999 when NATO bombed to halt the killing and ethnic cleansing of Albanian civilians in a two-year war with separatist guerrillas.
Around half the Serb population fled a wave of revenge attacks. The 100,000 who stayed live on the margins of society.
Kosovo’s outgoing U.N. governor, Soren Jessen-Petersen, will tell the U.N. Security Council on June 20 that Kosovo Albanian leaders have made strides in improving the rights and security of the remaining Serbs -- something U.N. and Western diplomats say is key to clinching independence.
The Serbs say this is a lie and blame a recent spate of violence on Albanians bent on driving them out.
Jessen-Petersen, in a report seen in advance by Reuters, will say the rate of ethnically-motivated crime is falling.
Direct talks on Kosovo’s fate began in February in Vienna under U.N. mediation. The crunch issue of status should be on the table in late July, with Western powers determined to end seven years of limbo in Kosovo by the end of the year.
Diplomats say the West favors independence, but fear a bid by Serbs in the north to partition Kosovo, a move seen certain to spark Albanian retaliation and force thousands to flee.
The U.N. has contingency plans for the exodus of 50,000 Serbs if Kosovo splits from Serbia. The 17,000-strong NATO peace force said this month it would bolster mobile units in the north by reopening a military base there.

Cvijus011 said...

Ivan,

I have also experienced something similar with an Albanian friend of mine here in Berlin. He comes from Albania (Shkoder) and he is against the independence of Kosovo because the society is not at all ready, extremely militant. Once being in Prizren he talked with some Albanians and he could barely keep his heads on his shoulders. He also told me that the K-albanians don't even know what democracy means. It reminds him of Europe at the time of Inquisition where when you have a different opinion you're dead.

You're right, this blog was much more interesting before, now it is just full of primitivism. The only people I think contirbute in keeping this blog to a decent level are Bg Anon and Kristian, but the one that contributes to the primitivism is without a competitor Mitrovica pika pika.

Bg Anon,

Patience has its limits, at least in my case and from then I start ignoring but I do agree that everyone deserves respect, but then you also need to get respect back. Unfortunatelly, you only get from the most the worse insults.

mitrovica pika pika said...

"but the one that contributes to the primitivism is without a competitor Mitrovica pika pika."


Coming from the one of the twins whos mother is trying to kill Mladic by infecting him with sphilis is a compliment.

Cvijus011 said...

"Coming from the one of the twins whos mother is trying to kill Mladic by infecting him with sphilis is a compliment."

Mitrovica pika pika, don't you realize that with such comments you're just proving me right?

NYoutlawyer said...

Mitrovicka picka (pussy from mitrovica) is just an angry old albo lady. She posts all over the place with names like shqptr00, liesnotscience, etc.

The prick has never been to kosovo, he's just full of venom. Ignore the old woman.