Thursday, June 15, 2006

ANALYSIS-Serbia on the ropes has the West a little worried

BELGRADE, June 15 (Reuters) - Shattered buildings on the boulevard tell the story: Belgrade is the only European capital bombed by NATO and Serbia does not forget it.

The cruise-missile ruins on "Tomahawk Alley" are totems of resentment of a people who feel misunderstood and abused by the powerful Westerners who ought to be their friends.

Seven years after NATO dropped its last bomb to drive Serb forces out of Kosovo, the Serbs still feel battered -- by rebukes, ultimatums and penalties from Brussels and Washington, by humiliating visa restrictions, by the sting of exclusion.

This feeling of "more stick than carrot" benefits hardline nationalists who tell Serbia the West never did love it and never will, says analyst Dejan Vuk Stankovic.

Setbacks and dashed hopes are part of the daily news diet here but the past six weeks were exceptional even by Serbian standards, and the latest party poll ratings reflect that.

On May 3, the European Union froze pre-membership talks with Serbia because it failed to hand over top war crimes fugitive Ratko Mladic, a Bosnian Serb, to the U.N. tribunal in The Hague.

On May 21, Serbia's partner Montenegro chose independence, saying the EU freeze proved it would be better off without Serbia and its odious legacy as instigator of the Yugoslav wars.

On June 9, a poll gave the opposition Radical Party over 40 percent voter support. Radicals worship Mladic, back revanchist aims, hate Western interference and despise liberals.


"The Montenegro referendum ... has increased Serbia's anger at the international community and its feeling of isolation," former U.S. ambassador William Montgomery wrote this week.

It made Serbs "less cooperative, more negative and more aggressive" at the very time the West needs their cooperation on Kosovo, whose 90 percent ethnic Albanian majority is expected to get independence this year with or without Serb approval.

A Western-inspired U.N. vote to amputate Serbia's cherished southern province could be exploited by anti-Western parties to whip up national outrage, with unpredictable consequences.

The U.S. and EU do not want Serbia reverting to chauvinism. They want it embedded in the West, not on the ropes, or at bay, or off the reservation in a region known for radical solutions.

Europe's worst wars since 1945 started here, just 15 years ago. Fighting in Bosnia and Croatia went on until 1995. In 1998-99 it raged again in Kosovo. Then it flared next door in Macedonia in 2000. The overall toll was 200,000 dead.

Serb analysts say Kosovo independence would further crank up support for the Radicals, raising the possibility of a hardline government in Belgrade if, as some predict, a snap election later this year unseats Serbia's fractious minority coalition.

The U.N. and NATO are braced for the possible exodus of 50,000 Serbs from Kosovo if the Albanians get independence, and for unrest in the Serb-dominated north which favours partition. But there is no known plan for a lurch back to defiance in Belgrade -- an issue to be discussed at this week's EU summit.

To complicate the picture in the wake of Montenegro's independence, Serbs in Bosnia sounded an alarm in the West this month by insisting they too have a right to vote for secession.

A breakaway movement in either place, egged on by a hardline Serbia, could scupper hopes of a peaceful solution in Kosovo.


No one expects all-out war to return to the Balkans, because people are in no mood for it, and war does not mix with hopes of a more prosperous future via EU and NATO membership.

But if hopes are scotched by a new isolationism, restraint could weaken as resentment of the West rises. Without official restraint the Balkans is known to breed violence.

Many Serbs firmly believe they are being bullied into betraying national interests and should tell the West where to go. The question is whether this sentiment will predominate.

NATO bombed for 78 days in 1999 to make Slobodan Milosevic pull his troops out of Kosovo. Seven years ago this week the army withdrew, bristling with brassy bandoliers and defiance.

Despite reconciliation, the defiance still smoulders, sustained by a lingering Serb sense of exceptionalism.

Serbia had to be threatened with sanctions before seeing the West was serious about surrendering suspects to The Hague to stand trial for the worst atrocities of the late 20th century.

It still refuses to admit the reality that Kosovo Albanians will never again entrust their fate to the state that killed 10,000 of them in two years, and drove out nearly a million.

Most Serbs have not seen Kosovo, yet insist it is their inalienable cultural and religious "Jerusalem". In the words of one analyst Serbia "wants the land but not the people on it".


ivan said...

yeah, these evil serbs..... poor world with these serbs. fortinatelly we have the siptar mafia to compensate us for all the evil in those serbs.

Sacred Dardanicum said...

Who can prove that serbian chauvinism toward other nations has ended yet. Just have a look on messages posted by servian peoples and also the other nations to servia.

Servia should be looked closelly becasue it is true that no one in Europe want's to have any wars in Europe except servians.

Even that some servian high ranking peoples said that if Kosovo gets independence their army will start a war in next 15 years to regain again Kosovo.

Another fact is that Servians during the history they have started wars every 50 years. So the servians are the most retarded nation because their plans have been delayed since mideval

mitrovica pika pika said...

the title would be more appropriate as "Serbia hanging from a rope".

ALBASOUL said...

you are sinking in deep shit and still have time to talk about Albanians. You are the losers, everyone knows that and you cannot change it by talking shit about us.

Tosi said...

They are losing everything now!

Argentina!! Argentina!!
ARG 3 - Scg 0

Tosi said...

Sorry, I gave serbia too much credit...

Arg 6!!! - Scg 0

NYoutlawyer said...

and how well are the albos playing in the world cup?

BTW albos, stop talking for us please, you have no idea what Serbians want. We are not all in the radical party.

mitrovica pika pika said...

No one gives a fuck what party serbs belong to. this self importance mania is becoming a bit trite.

Cvijus011 said...


you aren't even at the world cup (I mean Albania), so If I were you I'dd rather shut up.

Tosi said...


True, Albania did not qualify.
But I'd rather take that than my country being thrashed and humiliated. This is going into history books.

Here's a nice link for all the serbs around here (including NYsomething...). It's that wonderful 2-0 goal where Argentina made 24!! passes before scoring.
True class, which you lack. Enjoy...

Cvijus011 said...


Albania cannot qualify to anything, we made it atleast to the World Cup. So we lost, that's sports.

NYoutlawyer said...

I really don't give a rat's ass what albo shitpars say. All they want to do is bad mouth the Serbian poeple any way they can, it's their passion.

You are all Europe's scum. The poorest and most primitive, and that's a fact!

So say what you want, like I said, I could give a crap what albos think.

mitrovica pika pika said...

"So say what you want, like I said, I could give a crap what albos think."

So what the fuck are you doing in this board then?

bek2k1 said...


try learning how to spell.

bek2k1 said...


please learn to spell.

NYoutlawyer said...

None of your business what I'm doing here shqptr, Last I looked this was a democracy, unlike what you want kosovo to be.

AlbanianThrough&Through said...

You serbs on this site are a complete joke.

Kristian said...

No offence:

Like albanians are better?????

Balkan ppl are the same in so many ways the only way to distinguish them is only through bloodlines.

Mentally pretty much the same.

They are suspicious, mistrusting, create stereotypes, are ethnocentric, and believe in the mantra: "my way or the highway!"

Everyone in this forum has show their good sides and bad!

Thing is to not hate but put forth ways of bridging gaps. Helping each other to build a better future. Maybe not for us, but at least for our kids sake!

Peace to all!

ANYC said...

I'm really tired of your peace preaching triads about the balkans while you having stake and lobster in the US. It is extreamly easy to pass judgment from afar.
Yes I know you have been to Kosova few times and seen some things, but you have not been here all the time and seen all the things. How can you be trustful when your next door neighbour killed your 5 year old boy and raped your doughter/wife.
I know for a fact that if your american neigbour (regardless of origin) did this to your family-you would not offer reconciliation and peace.
Let the perpetrators admit their crimes before you have peace with them. Albanians have been burned way to many times by their neighbours to be trustful-some lessons take generations to learn, yet you preach as you have it all figured it out from Pleasentville, USA. If you lived here for good, dealt with daily suffering then you would be entitled to talk peace.

Bg anon said...

anyc with respect but who are you to talk?

How many people in Kosovo have access to the internet? What gives you the right to talk on the behalf of the mass of Kosovo Albanians behalf either?

Kristian has just as much a right to an opinion as you or I do. It isnt where one lives which is important, its ones opinions on the things that matter.

So if Kristian has it wrong say so but dont question where he lives or put the 'silver spoon' question to yourself as well.

ANYC said...

anyc with respect but who are you to talk?

Simple-I was there and dealt with it since birth-he did not.
By no means am I implying that he should not state his opinion. However, I am questioning the reality of his opinions. Let the ones who suffered the crime extend the hand of peace first. Go see the devesteated families that lost numerous loved ones to a sensless crime and preach peace to them if you are able to. But don't do it from the comfort of your couch-that is hypocracy.

NYoutlawyer said...

So shall we commit revenge crimes against Albanians for their war crimes during WWII now? When does the eye for an eye stop? Remember what Ghandi said, "it will only make all blind".

Will killing Serbians or destroying Orthodox churches make Albanians feel better now?

ANYC said...

"So shall we commit revenge crimes against Albanians for their war crimes during WWII now? "

What war crimes are you talking about you senile old man?

You took revenge for something anyway between 1945 all the way to 1999.

I think the old age has gotten the better of you NYlawyer. Unlike the actual actions of your state, I am not preaching revenge, but rather owning up to crimes that you have commited.Then and only then can the region move fwd. And at the same time telling my compatriots to watch out for your good gestures and offers of peace, as you are devils masked as angles; that is only eversince you lost the war.

Mir said...

Please stop beating the dead horse about Kosovo in 1999. Anyone with a mind or updated knowledge of politics and the region realized by now that Kosovo was no "genocide". Damn man, just take a look at Milosevic's trial if you want to see what the PROSECUTORS accepted as fact.

KLA was a American-branded terrorist organization when it was attacked by the JNA. Its that simple. More Albanians were driven away by NATO bombs than by supposed Serbian "ethnic cleansing" "plan" (you know, like usual, the evil communist serb villian plotting to wipe out the innocent democratic victim for no reason).

As far as
"Simple-I was there and dealt with it since birth-he did not. "

Let me guess the police beat you or something? OH YA LIKE THAT NEVER HAPPENS IN SERBIA LOL. It ONLY happens to Albanians in Kosovo ahaha. The police in the former Yugoslavia have always tried to beat the confessions out of people. Its nothing new. It came from Communism. Police brutality happened often in former Yugoslavia (i really dont know where you live if you think otherwise).

As for the West they can shove it up their ass with all respect. They DARE to call for Iraq to remain a united "multicultural" country after willingly assisting in the mutiliation of what was once Yugoslavia.

You can lie to yourself all you want and read as much propaganda as you want but before all this shit Albanians and Serbians lived together in Yugoslavia without almost any problems. The West had no intention to keep us friendly towards each other. Just look at how we argue on this blog.

Serbia and Albania and their people will ALWAYS be European. Who gives a shit if some circus "European Union" dosent include us in their 'club'? We still hold territory in Europe, we have left our footprints in history on land. We dont need some damn union to tell us we are Europeans. The Shanghai Cooperation sounds alot better then the EU right now to me.

And Kristian might not have been there but he has a MUCH better view on the subject than any of us. He didnt have to deal with the emotions or being there. He can look at it for what it was and UNBAISED because he saw it from a 3rd person perspective, which is something we can probably never do.

Kristian said...


I love your response! Quite touching, but maybe you should think about what I said and read some of my previous posts.

Those families will never find reconciliation with serbs, but the majority of the public didn't go through such a horrific episode.

But the rest of the population can start to bridge gaps in relationships. If you were personally a victim then I'm sorry you went through such an ordeal. I know no one can do anything about that. I can't bring my cousins back either, but I'm not constantly hating serbs for it. Its pointless to do so. I will never forget, but I do blame the ones that pulled the trigger and the ones that gave the command and hopefully they'll be brought in front of a court of law, (if that doesn't happen then God will determine their fates in the end anyways).

Most ablanians and serbs don't think rationally but emotionally. All balkan ppl think that way. Emotions supercede logic or "reality", a word you chose to use.

Numerically its impossible to label or stereo type all individuals as evil. Its this way of thinking that caused the whole mess in the first place. You say something so many times that it becomes reality. And NYlawyer it didn't start in 1945 the hate bt our ppl started when the mass conversions to islam started. Serb and Albanians converted and this caused a rift of christianity and islam. And prior to that the Slavik invasions from the north. The dislike amongst our ppl runs way before the last century. Its a millenium or so old.

Going back if you keep telling a tale about a ppl and repeat it over and over it becomes a fact and not a myth in the psche of a person or nation. Serb mothers have been telling stories to their kids that you shouldn't do something bad otherwise albanians will eat you, while albanians have been telling the story that serbs are evil.


If Albanians are so superior then they can forgive and move on, but as you said if I preached peace it would fall on death ears. So that means Albanians are no better then serbs. They are no wiser! Same goes for the serbs bc mythology has corrupted reality and truth.

Serbs have shut their ears to any form of reconciliation that they have lost 4 wars. And still don't believe that their previous leaders committed any crimes. They are in denial. Because of this denial they will not apologize for in their minds they didn't commit one single crime even though there is plenty evidence showing that they (soldiers and military in Kosovo/a's case the local Serbs) committed these crimes in the name of the state.

Do I believe the Serbian Govt should apologize to the victims of the war. Absolutely! Will they do it???? That remains to be seen.

Will Albanians that committed crimes against serbs apologize??? That remains to be seen too.

Who should take the first step??? I believe the Serbs should in order to bridge the gap bt the two peoples. Will they do it?? Wait and see!

ANYC never forget what happened, but give ppl the benefit of the doubt! If both sides were to think this way things will change for the better.

I wish I lived in pleasentville all my life. That would of been nice. I've lived in some of the poorest nations on this planet. And when I say lived that means more then 3 months. The Peace Corp. was a great experience.

So when I compare Kosovo/a to some of the other poorer countries on this planet, Albanians didn't have it so bad up till the war that is. Imagine living in a country were if you look at someone in a strange way it could mean your life or improsonment for life. Again Albanians didn't have it so bad, they actually had it worse when Albanians themselves were in power prior to 89. Albanian police officers beat up more albanians then the serbs did. Don't you love communism or were you to young to remember those days??????

P.S. Stake is a peace of wood and I'm not fond of wood, but steak's I do love, Lobster I'm allergic too.

P.S.S. Peace to all :)

Kristian said...

To: Mir

Sorry mate but killing APPROXIMATELY 10k ppl is not a small number. And forcing them from their homes and burning all documents of their existence in FROY IS ETHNIC CLEANSING! That simple!

That you have to admit. Lets give broad figures bc all figures are disputable. Anywhere from 500k to 800k ppl were chased out. And not bc of the bombing per se. Sorry this I have to disagree with you.

My sister in laws granfather and first cousin were shot by the para military police for refusing to tell them were his sons and daughters were. The guys was 74 yrs old. I guess its easy shooting a defenseless old man :(

JNA had a long campaign that started prior to 98. Milo and his cronies were experts in their field of holding power with an iron fist.

One thing I can do is I can see things much clearer then ppl that actually live there. That I can agree with you. I don't get emotional as my fellow countrymen do. And I don't get angry either bc each individual has the right to express their opinion and view even if I like it or not.

Its better then shooting at each other. I bet half the serbs and albanians here have a higher tolerance to each other then they had before and they don't even realize it. And I know some of the frustration that each group conveys is no different from their own personal experience.

I'm just saddened a great country that all rooted for was dessimated by nationalistic leaders!

Maybe ppl will learn from this experience and prevent it from happening again.

Peace to all

ANYC said...

Those families will never find reconciliation with serbs, but the majority of the public didn't go through such a horrific episode.

Kristian - having expelled over 1 million people- that amounts more than half of entire population-remember the others were internally displace-living in mountains etc. SO THE MAJORITY OF POPULATION DID GO THROUGH.

Now as far as you mentioning Peace Corps- the last time I checked that was a voluntary service. And you have to really plead with them to send you there. There is a difference between choosing to go to an impoverished place and spending your whole life there. If something went wrong in one of these places you went-you always had the backing of US government to get you out of there.
You are way to Americanized to really understand the mentality of balkans-despite being there and otherplaces in the world. Your attitude of reconciliation, although correct, does not match to the reality of the situation on the ground. There have been numerous tries by UN people to reconcile these people- and most have failed miserably-because they used a utopian approach.
AS you said "serbs are in denial" even after 4 wars. It is rather hard to deal with them and reconcile when they see themselves as victims-contrary to reality. If anything you should know from this blog how they try to minimize what happened and claim that all that took place was a script prepared by CNN and BBC. Until serbs change their stance towards their neighbours -as a nation- I really don't see much hope.
I really hate to say this to you again, but why don't you let your sisters in law family do the forgiving and extend the hand of peace. If you try to do it then those are rather some big shoes for you to fill-and I don't think you are in any position to do so.

Kristian said...


I really hate to say this to you again, but why don't you let your sisters in law family do the forgiving and extend the hand of peace. If you try to do it then those are rather some big shoes for you to fill-and I don't think you are in any position to do so.

Actually she has and so has her family for they live here in the US. If you've ever read my posts I have a serbian neighbor and a croat neighbor. My lawn or property line splits our two properties. Never had a problem with the guy nor does my sister in law. Nor does her father or brothers for that matter.

They've talked about the situation there and both tend to agree that Belgrade is more of a problem then the ppl that lived in Kosovo/a. Serb or Albanian. Her father was a police officer and has many stories of how Albanians are and how Serbs are.

Overwhelmingly Albanians are thick headed. More so then the serbs. One thing that serbs do well is that they stick together more so then Albanians do. One flaw we have as a people. And that is why we've been screwed over the years and throughout history.

Not trying to bash you or preach to you. But believe me albanians didn't have it that bad compared to the Bosnians. (keeping it within the FROY) The mountains or hills have always been the protectorate of Albanians.

Maybe I should remind you of what older ppl used to say back in the day. As long as the fireplace is still standing then we can always rebuild our homes.

The serbs do marginalize things and they will complain as much as possible at the moment. Plus Belgrade is using them and creating a wedge bt Kosovans of all ethnicities. Its sad!

As far as me being in the peace corps, you're right the USA always had my back. Yes I'm fortunate that I was born in a great country, but also remember that I'm a first generation here so I'm neither american nor am I albanian. I'm in the middle and I see the positives and negatives of each society and culture.

And the Balkans is easily to understand and understand what the situation in on the ground. Its the same as all the other countries I've been on this great planet of ours.

Now as a ppl we were trying to gain rights, now we have those rights. Remember initially we were only asking to be a REPUBLIC, not a nation. Since FROY disintegrated then by the 1974 constitution we had a right to part ways.

As much as the serbs are in denial albanians keep forgetting where they were in the scheme of things and some of the less educated folks think that revenge is the key to solving their problems. Its not and independence will not solve Kosovo/a's problems entirely. It will take time and I'm predicting a good 15 yrs to do so. And the same goes with serbia and its nation.

There are extremists on both sides. So hopefully they will not influence the mainstream public opinion but truth will prevail and most importantly JUSTICE.

have to get back to work

Peace to all!

ANYC said...

Your optimism of the balkan people gettin along should be commended.
However, your argument of us getting along is fundamentally incorrect. Reason being you have a whole nation that has used all means at its disposal to eradicate Albanians since the battle of Kosovo. That policy is still in place today-no question about it- just do your research and look who runs their academy of sciences and parliament. These are the people who decide how their history is presented to their future generation.
Your attitude of being united and living together has been tried under comunism when both albanian and serbs fought together the nazis. Well we all know how that turn out in the end.
There has been way too much bad blood between the two. We need strong fences from them and a few generations. And they need to change their mentality of taking over their neighbours.

Bg anon said...

anyc you exaggerate so much. Why is it so necessary for you to exaggerate that badly?

Yes there are chauvanistic views among Serbs about Albanians, thats not something that can be seriously denied. But to claim that since the dawn of Serbia it has used every means at its disposal to erradicate Albanians is fantasy.

Why do you think that Albanians are so important that they any other people would be so obsessed? Albanians like the Serbs are a relatively small European people and to be honest nobody cares much about either of us.

Neither do I accept that there hasnt been progress Kristian I resent the comment that Serbs have shut their ears (I have done my part in making sure this isnt true). Most Serbs do accept that their side comitted crimes as well. The mainstream argument these days (unless you see the minority, ultra radical types) doesnt deny that Serbs comitted crimes. It usually a relativisation argument heard in Serbia along the lines of 'yes we were bad but the other sides were just as bad'. That may not be enough but everybody knows that Serbs comitted crimes. There have been numerous war crimes tried in Serbian courts. Recently (disgrace that it took so long yes) police officers were arrested in connection of the shameful Batajnica Albanian bodies. Progress is there, slow that it may be.

The additional problem is that Serbs cant look at the issue as though its in the past as Kosovo Albanians now can because hundreds of thousands of Serbs remain ethnically cleansed and bitter. Hundreds of thousands is enough to influence any electorate and government. Let them return to their homes and they might moderate.

Just a small amount of understanding goes a long way. I may not agree with the politics of Serbian nationalism but let us not exaggerate it and at least make an attempt to understand the situation today. I should add that I also make the same attempt to understand Albanian, Croatian nationalism as well.

Recently there was a book published (in Albanian and Serbian) by a Kosovo Albanian journalist who lived in Belgrade for most of his life, including during the bombardment.

Cant wait to read that book in full.

ANYC said...

Bganon I exaggerate don't I? Let us see...

Here is a quote from Cubrilovic from Ljubica Stefan’s book ‘Serbs and Albanians':

"The moment the first Serbian units began their penetration toward Kursumlija, Prokuplje and Leskovac, they came across densely grouped Albanian villages that refused to surrender. They will be the central point of Serbian battles. Village by village had to be taken. The Albanians retreated toward the south, hiding in refugee camps and continued to fight. When the Serbian Army would approach refugee camps, they would retreat toward the South Morava Valleys, Veternica, Medvedje, Pusta Reka and Laba, then further on to Kosovo… After 1878, Serbia had to colonise the regions abandoned by the Albanians and Turks..... "

Above was written in 1930's about events that took place prior to 1880's.

Here is a quote from Trotsky himself during 1912 campain:

Quoting a Serbian soldier whose civil and political conscience had been revolted, Trotsky reported:

"The horrors actually began as soon as we crossed the old frontier ... The darker the sky became, the more brightly the fearful illumination of the fires stood out against it. Burning was going on all around us. Entire Albanian villages had been turned into pillars of fire -- dwellings, possessions, accumulated by fathers, grandfathers and great-grandfathers were going up in flames."

Then you had the mass expulsions done by Rankovic-which included declaring Albanians as Turks and then sending them to Turkey.

And finally of course the Milosevic years.

You see Bgannon this is not a fantasy afterall, but rather a organized state affair of eradication.

NYoutlawyer said...

OK, this is the way I see it. Albos say the honorable Serbian people have tried to eradicate albos from the Balkans since the Battle of Kosovo. Who really knows? History and it's books are usually biased, depending on who is writing them.

At this point, both sides (honorable Serbian people and albos) should just bury the hatchet and let bygones be bygones. I am in favor of that.

Let's face it, albo Kosovar government is TOTALLY incapable of running an independent nation. Do they want the UN there for decades? The albo radical fringes within Kosovo would go ballistic, maybe civil war.

Take the Serbian offer of full autonomy, work on improving the lives of the ordinary citizen. Get them out of the Stone Age.

Like Draskovic said, "You cannot eat independence".

ANYC said...

This is the first time I have said this to anyone on this blog:

You are mentally ill, seriously. For a retired old man to spew such insults you must be a total bitter loser in life. Your arguments are incoherent and follow no logic of what is being said. Anyone who respons to you is just dignifying your mental illness. You should seriously seek a cure...

Mir said...

"Sorry mate but killing APPROXIMATELY 10k ppl is not a small number. And forcing them from their homes and burning all documents of their existence in FROY IS ETHNIC CLEANSING! That simple!"

See. Too much media version of the story and no factual version anymore. Its unbelievable how much CNN/BBC is a propaganda tool rather than a news broker.

1) The number of dead including Serbs is not even HALF of the constantly-repeated '10,000' number (thats including bodies that havent been accounted for or found yet). On top of that there are many journalists who witnessed the UCK trying to pressure people out of their homes (which would overwhelmingly pump up the number of people Serbia seemingly 'cleansed'). But why are these stories simply ignored and not denied nor confirmed by the media?

2) I dont know if you have any military experience Kristian... but NATO dropped bombs on Kosovo that can go through both sides of a reinforced concrete building... maybe they werent targetting Albanians purposefully, but if that bomb lands even 50 meters away from people (for example the albanian/serb refugee columns) they are either dead or riddled with shrapnel.

3) Yes forcing people from their homes and burning their papers would be ethnic cleansing. But how do we now know if they even lived there originally if they say their papers were 'destroyed'? :(

I feel guilty for the civilians that died during the 10 years of war in the Balkans, they had nothing to do with the politician's power grabs. I DONT feel sorry for the civilians that DONT exist and died. Like the 300,000 that 'died' in Bosnia. The total (including serbs/croats) number (according to Sarajevo) is slightly bigger than 100,000 and is split almost evenly between soldier/civilian deaths. I dont even want to talk about the '8000' at Srebrenica.

Its ABSOLUTELY impossible to paint a clear picture of what happened in the Balkans because of how many 'facts' are little more than media stories/propaganda.

I will say it again, I deeply regret the deaths of the innocent civilians on all sides, they had nothing to do with the cause of the wars. But I will not apologize to people that never existed to begin with and I will never except the CNN/Disneyland version of the story of what happened in the Balkans.

Mir said...

"You see Bgannon this is not a fantasy afterall, but rather a organized state affair of eradication. "

You're comparing events from 70 years ago to modern events...

Kristian said...


However, your argument of us getting along is fundamentally incorrect.

You are right its incorrect. Each individual group doesn't even get along amongst themselves, so why would they get along with their neighbors? It would be pointless.

There has been way too much bad blood between the two. We need strong fences from them and a few generations. And they need to change their mentality of taking over their neighbours.

Your also right that albanians never were into expansionism. They only wanted security and a strong governmental body that enforced the law.

As far as the fences, that is counter intuitive to the fact that all want to join the EU which is not promoting fences but actually getting rid of them.

There has been much blood shed on both sides, that is a fact. And each side needs to change their mentallity towards each other. And definately not let extremists gain power. Moderates should be in power for they are more open minded and actually work for the ppl and not their own agenda's.

Americans used to say the same thing about the Japanese. That they were evil and they bombed pearl harbour, etc...... Through economics both realized that neither was the enemy but they were friends and could prosper together. Same with germany!

The reason I'm an optimist is that ppl in the area haven't realized the potentials they have. They only look at their day to day lives and are dissapointed with the system. You'll see as each country starts seeing their neighbors as potential markets all the animocities will eventually dissapear and maybe the Academy might change those books as the Americans, Germans, and Japanese have. A wishful thought that will take time.

Still both sides can do a lot to mend things. Sometimes if you take the first step you'll always be the better person in the long run.

Peace to all!

Kristian said...

To: Bganon

Neither do I accept that there hasnt been progress Kristian I resent the comment that Serbs have shut their ears (I have done my part in making sure this isnt true).

The comment for serbs shuting their ears comes from the recent polls of ppl supporting the radicals. And their view seems to be that they didn't do anything that was bad. And I believe ppl are afraid to stand up as you do. There are a lot of ppl (assuming) that feel like you but they are not vocal in public. Tadic seems to be an optimist, Kastunica seems to be bitter. The guy who resigned over the fact that serbia didn't had Mladic, seems like a positive fellow and even though he resigned it didn't change anything.

The additional problem is that Serbs cant look at the issue as though its in the past as Kosovo Albanians now can because hundreds of thousands of Serbs remain ethnically cleansed and bitter. Hundreds of thousands is enough to influence any electorate and government. Let them return to their homes and they might moderate.

This is where I have a problem with the displaced individuals. In croatia they've been working hard on getting serbs to go back. And the majority of the IDP's are from Croatia and Bosnia, the least amounts come from kosovo/a. The Kosovo/a govt has been working equally hard but as you said things move slowly in that region.

The majority of IDP's left as the army was pulling out. I will agree fear played a role in their decision to leave. And I'm sure some of those individuals were responsible in breaking a law or two. But that is not the issue here.

I believe Belgrade or should I say the power greedy politicians are using the IDP's to influence public opinion. Also its costing money to keep these individuals in serbia proper. Ppl are getting fed up. This causes internal rife and the politicians are taking every advantage to exploit the issue of how your neighbors did to them. Sad to say!

An ideal solution would be for all to return. The ones from Kosovo/a I don't think want to return. First they know how the economic situation is in Kosovo/a. They pleaded Milo for yrs to get assistance. Never happened. They did get subsidies but it didn't solve their problems. I think they see serbia proper as having more opportunities or other western countries. They don't see jobs or economic opportunities in Kosovo/a. And I don't blame them.

I hope that clarified my comment on "serbs have shut their ears!"

Peace to all

Kristian said...

To: Mir

The word I capitalized was: APPROXIMATELY! I'm not saying that that was the correct figure. I was hoping you'd pick up on that. I hope this clarifies it.

See. Too much media version of the story and no factual version anymore. Its unbelievable how much CNN/BBC is a propaganda tool rather than a news broker.

The burning of documents didn't come from CNN/BBC. My sister in laws family documents were completely burned. When her father went to get documents from the town hall in Gjokova/vica the paramilitary had already begun burning documents. Bc he was a former cop he went to belgrade to get documents otherwise he didn't have documents except his I.D. In serbian its called Licna carta (totally mispelled). At borders paramilitary personel were destroying or confiscating documents. anything from ID cards to passports to property Deeds. Oh I forgot collecting Cash "DONATIONS AS ONE PARAMILITARY PUT IT AS HE WAS INTERVIEWED! All town halls were lit up right when the military left. Sad!

But how do we now know if they even lived there originally if they say their papers were 'destroyed'? :(

Your census from the 80's gives an accurate picture of how many albanians lived in Kosovo/a. Plus birth rates were calculated by the govt. So its pretty much in par with the numbers in the province.

And please don't use your previous argument that albanians from albania proper flooded kosovo/a after communism fell. Their main areas of migration were Italy, Greece, and western europe. Kosovo was not a viable place for them and the JNA was controlling the borders prior to the war. You think ppl would head to a war region or economically deprived region??????

I will say in every bad situation there are opportunists that will try to cheat the system. But I don't think it would show up on any study.

Bc all paperwork was distroyed there are property disputs throughout the province. Even shootouts over property lines. There is no one or document to show property lines bc markers have been moved. And there are over 40k disputes in the courts right now. A majority are serbian disputes over their property.

As far as military experience dont have much but I do excercise my constitutional right to bear arms and have a CCW. If you dont know what a CCW is, its carrying a concealed weapon permit. Anyways...

As far as the bombing goes there was this great example of an F16 shooting at a tractor with a trailor full of albanians. It did a hell of a job but it was truly sad that so many ppl died bc they thought they were aiming at a tank. There is no doubt that civilians were casualties during the bombing campaign.

And I'm glad that you see what your previous govt did and what it actually did to the region as a whole. I would recommend that in your lifetime that you'd be vocal when you see a trend towards such distruction if it may arise in the future.

Again Peace to All!

mitrovica pika pika said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
mitrovica pika pika said...

"Most Serbs do accept that their side comitted crimes as well"

Actually for serbs it was a rule for others an a exception.

ANYC said...

"You're comparing events from 70 years ago to modern events... "

Is there a point you are trying to make MIR.

My point on the orther side was to illustrate to BGannon that serbia has had a policy of expulsion against Albanians for over a century now-and I provided proof.

Bgannon I really am curious to see your response (if you have a valid one) to my writtings. I'll take your silence as admission that my argument is not based on fantasy as you claimed before.

Bg anon said...

anyc you could just as well take my silence as meaning that I was too busy to respond...

In any case the author of that book isnt anybody I've read and I dont know his view of history - he's entitled to his opinion but it doesnt prove that since ethnic awareness has existed that the Serbs have been on a mission to liquidate or erradicate Albanians.
If that is the case then why can Albanians go about their business in Serbia proper (as they should be allowed to be and trust me I am consistently among the first to object if they are not allowed to go about their business normally)

That kind of thing is unprovable because it didnt happen. Yes throughout history Serbs, like Albanians thought it was very important to be the majority in any area they believed belonged to them. So they would encourage that. This isnt so surprising when you look at history of the area.

Trotsky of course had his own political philosophy that he was deeply attatched to - so deeply attatched that I would argue such people's opinions must always be taken with a pinch of salt. His primary objective is to show that his philosophy is the best so he shapes facts to prove his thesis.

That isnt to say that there hasnt been conflict / domination in Kosovo - of course there has. But the fact remains that there have been many more years of peace in Kosovo than there has been war. Why dont you want to talk about the many, many years of peace in Kosovo?

As far as I remember Rankovic's Kosovo plan didnt get off the drawing board. And we both know what happened to him.

And Milosevic from a nationalist Kosovo Albanian perspective was a positive. Do you think that his arrival on the political scene helped or pushed back the Kosovo Albanian cause?

You are citing instances of conflict / domination throughout history between Serbs and Albanians. At least some of that isnt in question.

My contention is that most Serbs have never even met an Albanian much less have an obsession with Albanians. Yes that can be a bad thing because people are easier to manipulate when you create a bogey like figure of somebody you've never met. On the other hand a bogey figure you have met or seen (Serbs in Kosovo seen by Albanians) being labled evil incarnate or war criminals is much more likely to be a target of obsession or worse.

You have to understand that to moderate Serbs Albanians (and even Kosovo) arent that important. Far more important is trying to make a living and to improve ones life.

I only read one extract from that Kosovo Albanian journalist's book who lived in Belgrade for years and during the bombardment but I suspect that he will be honest about Serbian attitudes towards Albanians. If you really want to know what these contemporary views are (and not from hundreds of years ago) then buy that book.

But like I say I havent read the book yet and hope he provides a balanced picture...

Kristian sorry cant reply today, I have a football match to watch. Hope the players wont disgrace themselves this time.

ANYC said...

OK Bgannon-forget the book written by that author-here is a direct quote from papers written by Vasa Cubrilovic himself:

"The regions between Jastrebac and southern Morava were radically cleared of Albanians. From 1918 onwards, it was the task of our present state to suppress what remained of the Albanian triangle, but it did not succeed.
There remains one more method Serbia employed with great practical effect after 1878, that is, secretly razing Albanian villages and urban settlements to the ground.
The Organization of the Evacuation
From the attached map (1), it is apparent what regions must be cleared. They are: Upper Dibër / Debar, Lower Polog, Upper Polog, the Shar mountains, Drenica, Peja / Pec, Istog / Istok, Vuçitërna / Vucitrn, Stavica, Llap / Lab, Graçanica / Gracanica, Nerodimja / Nerodimje, Gjakova / Djakovica, Podgor, Gora (Dragash), Lugu i Drinit / Podrimje, Gjilan / Gnjilane and Kaçanik / Kacanik. Of these regions, which together form the Albanian wedge, the most important for us at the moment are: Peja / Pec, Gjakova / Djakovica, Lugu i Drinit / Podrimje, Gora (Dragash), Podgor, Shar, Istog / Istok and Drenica, all to the north of the Shar mountains, Upper Dibër / Debar and the two Pologs to the south, and the Shar mountains themselves. These are border regions that must be cleared of Albanians at any cost."

As far as Trotsky was concerned and whatever his policies were - he had more in common with serbs than albanians. Although considering his reporting I'm quite sure that he was impartial in this instance.

Now Rankovic-you gotta be kidding me with your response. My granfather told me stories how they used to make men in entire villages stand in the cold at night and beat them up until they produced weapons. He even had scars to prove it. This was done under "weapons colletion" pretex. So alot of people had to buy a wepon and hand it in. Many others moved to turkey to avoid the abuse. So your notion of this never taking place is quite absurd.

So what are you saying that Milosevic did Albanians a favor?! The same can be said for american indians-now they have casions- so we are all even. Give me a break...

I was hoping you would add some substance to the arguments presented as opposed to flat out rejection. I guess not...