Thursday, July 06, 2006

EU reaches out to Serbia, but conditions remain

BELGRADE, July 6 (Reuters) - The European Union has not shut the door on Serbia but will only restart talks on closer ties once Belgrade brings war crime fugitives to justice, EU Enlargement Commissioner Olli Rehn said on Thursday.

The EU froze talks on a so-called Stabilisation and Association Agreement two months ago because Belgrade failed to deliver Bosnian Serb fugitive Ratko Mladic to the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia.

During an official visit to Belgrade, Rehn said the EU was still "actively engaged in the European future of Serbia".

As proof of its commitment, it had prepared a separate negotiation mandate for Serbia, which was conducting association talks with Montenegro until it voted to pull out of their union in May.

"Full cooperation with the ICTY, which needs to lead to the arrest and transfer of Ratko Mladic, remains the necessary condition to resume the talks for the SAA agreement," Rehn said after a meeting with Serbia's pro-Western president Boris Tadic.

The association agreement would be the first step on Serbia's long road to eventual EU membership. The suspension left Serbia as the only country in the Balkans without a roadmap to accession, even behind once Stalinist Albania which signed up last month.

Apart from the EU rebuff, the Montenegro vote and the prospect of independence this year for the breakaway province of Kosovo have increased Serbia's feelings of betrayal by the West.

Echoing the frustration of ordinary Serbs, Serbian Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica last month said the EU stance was "deeply wrong" and counter-productive. Brussels said he was trying to shift blame for his government's failures.

But worried that wounded pride will further boost the ultranationalist Radical Party, already the country's strongest, Western officials have urged the international community to show Serbs their future lies within Europe and NATO, not chauvinism and isolation.

While Brussels has made a number of goodwill gestures that include promises of financial aid and easing of the gruelling visa regime, it has never wavered from its condition on war crimes suspects.

Rehn said he was heartened by the preparation of an "action plan" by the Serbian government to get negotiations back on track by arresting Mladic, who is twice indicted for genocide for his role in the 1992-95 Bosnia war.

84 comments:

redemption department said...

"But worried that wounded pride will further boost the ultranationalist Radical Party, already the country's strongest, Western officials have urged the international community to show Serbs their future lies within Europe and NATO, not chauvinism and isolation."

Am I the only one who is doesn't think this issue can be paraphrased into such an abbreviated notion?

NYoutlawyer said...

F'ing politicians, whether local or the world stage, are just full of hot air and clever words.

It's like the pricks in DC that support the Iraq war, yet I don't see one of their kids fighting there.

How can you tell a politician is lying? His lips are moving.

Kristian said...

Wow one good thing that came out of Ny..... mouth!


Keep it up and maybe ppl will respect you more!


Peace to all!

NYoutlawyer said...

Here we go baby, can muslim kosovo be far behind?

Today baby fro an islamic site - Bosnian Foreign Minister Meladen Ivanic in a meeting with Iranian Deputy Foreign Minister for Euro-American Affairs Saeed Jalili, said that his country is interested in expanding its friendly ties with Iran.

At the meeting on Wednesday, Ivanic expounded on the latest developments in the domestic scene of Bosnia and Herzegovina as well as its relative political stability and added that his country attaches great significance to mutual ties.

He expressed satisfaction with the current favorable diplomatic moves between the two states and welcomed bolstering relations and cooperation at the bilateral, regional and international levels, adding that this is owing to Iran's diplomatic activities.

Ivanic urged the need to use the full capacities of both countries, in particular to broaden collaboration and called for participation of Iranian investors and tradesmen in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

For his part, Jalili, who is currently on a two-day visit to the Balkan state, said that he is pleased to witness the stability and tranquility governing Bosnia and Herzegovina, following the bitter and cumbersome war period in the country.

He hoped that the outcome of the future election in this country will further promote stability and tranquility there.

Turning to the ethnic diversity in Iran and several thousand years of national experience in peaceful coexistence among various ethnic groups with Iranian identity, he hoped that the Bosnian people will manage to coexist peacefully, given various ethnics residing in the country.

During his visit to Bosnian and Herzegovina, the Iranian deputy foreign minister conferred with Bosnia's Muslim member of its tripartite presidency, Sulejman Tihic, Prime Minister Ahmet Hadzipasic and parliament speaker.

Kristian said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
NYoutlawyer said...

Bosnian war widows to sue U.N., Dutch

SREBRENICA, Bosnia-Herzegovina, July 5 (UPI) -- Muslim widows were reportedly preparing to sue the United Nations and Netherlands for failing to protect their sons and spouses from Bosnian Serbs in 1995.

An Amsterdam legal firm was working on the compensation lawsuit on behalf of the widows from Srebrenica, the mostly Muslim town in eastern Bosnia, Germany's Der Spiegel reported Wednesday.

About 8,000 Muslim boys and men were killed in July 1995 after Serbian troops led by military chief Ratko Mladic captured Srebrenica.

Still on the run, Mladic is sought by the U.N. tribunal in The Hague on genocide and crimes against humanity charges, including the Srebrenica massacre.

Dutch soldiers, as part of the U.N. protection forces, were stationed around in the Srebrenica area and in villages nearby, but they were not equipped to confront the Bosnian Serb units.

However, for most of the surviving relatives, money is not the issue, the newspaper said. The relatives want an answer as to why the Dutch soldiers did not, or could not stop the Serbian troops.

Dutch troops were instructed to do nothing. NATO and it's bastard child, the UN, allowed Milosevic's madness to spread. That way, there was justification for bringing him down, and dissolving Yugoslavia. Well played by the Western capitalistic pricks, no matter how many people lost their lives.

Kristian said...

At 2:13 PM, NYoutlawyer said...

You f'ing albaniacs are such petty little pricks. S/M did lose badly, they played without spirit. But someone else's defeat does not make you better. You are still nothing, the worst and lowest on the EU food chain.

If there was a world cup for begging, you would be champions without a dought.

Peace to some of you.

At 3:54 PM, Cvijus011 said...

the even worse thing is that albanians never qualified for anything, neither the European nor the World Cup and they dare to open their mouths. We were at least there and you were nowhere so husshhh

Imagine what would happen if Albania palyed against Argentina. 20-0 for Argentina.

At 5:47 PM, ivan said...

Cvijus,

dont be so arrogant, albanians are masters in throwing stones :))

At 8:03 PM, NYoutlawyer said...

If the albaniacs were losing to Serbia at half time, I'm sure the US would come in and rescue them.



At 8:42 PM, Kristian said...

To: the last 3 comments



NO matter what in world history you will be known as the country that has the worst record in World Cup History!


Can't erase that! Even if you claim they played without spirit!

There was one Albanian from Kosovo/a at the world cup. He played for Switzerland. Maybe you guys oversaw that fact! One this time and a few more the next and so on....

And remember Albania proper is its own country and the majority of Albanians on this blog are either of Kosovan descent or are actual Kosovans. So lets see what happens from this World Cup onwards!

NYoutlawyer said...

Please don't give me that, "we are of kosovar decent". You are all albaniacs. Just because your daddys illegally ran to kosovo from albania because it was an unbearable shithole, does not make you anything but, ALBANIACS!

I told you earlier, if there is a world cup for stealing or begging, you will be the odds on favorites. Hey, at least you are best at something.

ANYC said...

OK, time for reality check with regard to this article:

Source: BETA News Agency

...Commenting on the possible radicalization of Serbia in case the negotiating process is considered unfavorable for Serbian interests,MIchael Polt said that "the international community, unfortunately, can live with the radicalization of Serbia" but that Serbian citizens have to ask themselves whether they can.
"Claims that radicalization will happen, that it will destabilize the Balkans, that it is the international community that will be responsible for this and feel its consequences, is simply not true," said Michael Polt.

You gotta love the Americans-at least they have the balls to tell it like it is...so deal with it.

arianit said...

Redemption,

Something definitely is f* up in the state of Denmark. We're talking "wounded pride" against the fate of 2,000,000 (in words: two million) people here. And some circles still have a hard time deciding.

Fatos said...

Arianit:
I think you are being very insensitive in your comment. If your country had lost 6:0 in the world cup (a world record for received goals), wouldn't that just depress you? How much more can your pride suffer? I think the international community is rightly supporting Serbs - they need a big boost - in addition to moral support,I think they should also send some humanitarian aid (mostly Viagra). Come on NYoutlawyer, since you are in the US I suggest you start an initiative "motherland's call" or something along those lines and help the poor countrymen or soon Albanians are going to be forced to help increase your birth rates.

Saranda_Alb said...

Cvijus,
It doesn't matter whether albanians ever qualified for anything, the only match between an Albanian team and a Serbian team, was won by the albanians. Anybody remembers how Flamurtari of Vlora eliminated Partizan of Belgrade, in Belgrade in front of a very pissed off home crowd. We slaped you silly in your own home, so don't open your mouth, or we'll beat you again.

Kristian said...

Saranda was that the game played recently???? And when if you don't mind me asking!



Also anyone remember when Prishtina beat the (undefeated black or was it red star team of Belgrade) in the 80's with an overwhelming lead in belgrade.

After the game the Democratic Police of serbia decided to physically beat the players bc they won the game. How sore or a loser can you be???


To: Ny.....

In what century were there more albanians then serbs in Kosovo/a????


And as the scholars of belgrade have pointed out that if albanians are not of Illyrian descent then they must be Dardanians or Thracians which have lived in the land of present day Kosovo/a prior to the Slavs! That means particularly you NY.....

So who are the invaders now?????

Have a great day!

Kristian said...

To: NY...


your coment about "kosovan descent"!


It only shows how radicall you are in your racist comments towards albanians! And its reflected by your ppl at large in Serbia proper and around the world. And you want to consider yourselves democratic. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Of a moral ppl, who are better then others in the balkans. A righteous ppl that stand up for what is right and want equality. That you are a ppl of dignity and rule with wisdom!


If only the above statement was true! To bad its not!

You have ppl that are only SELFISH and SORE LOSERS even after 600 yrs.

GET OVER IT! You lost a battle then and lost the world cup now with the worst record in recorded history!

Kristian said...

To: NY...



Oh now do me a favor:


Don't create a Mythological reason as to why you lost the world cup this year!

It'll probably go like this:


In 2006 a great force was dividing our nation and bc of it our great heroic players were affected by such terrible forces for the world was on their shoulders for they were protecting it from Jihadist Albanians. They divided our nation and then poisoned our players, for this reason they lost the Great WORLD CUP! We shall show these Jihadists no mercy and if one doesn't make the sign of the cross they will beheaded to be an example to others not to cross our great border!


That's pretty funny! I need my coffee and need to take a shower to get ready for work.

Peace to all!

Serbs In Kosovo are in Danger said...

Polt is incredibly dumb. Of course it will be the responsibility of the west for any radicalization of Serbia. If they take Kosovo away from Serbia against it will show the west hates Serbs-especially Kosovo Serbs-and they will have to look in other directions for support.

Polt is just incredibly dumb. Can you really imagine a headline that says "Serbia big winner as Kosovo becomes indepedent" That is just incredibly dumb.

mitrovica pika pika said...

...Commenting on the possible radicalization of Serbia in case the negotiating process is considered unfavorable for Serbian interests,MIchael Polt said that
Polt is just incredibly dumb. Can you really imagine a headline that says "Serbia big winner as Kosovo becomes indepedent" That is just incredibly dumb."

Maybe he is dumb and all serbs are smart or maybe vice versa. Pick your poison.Polt also said this.

"the international community, unfortunately, can live with the radicalization of Serbia" but that Serbian citizens have to ask themselves whether they can.
"Claims that radicalization will happen, that it will destabilize the Balkans, that it is the international community that will be responsible for this and feel its consequences, is simply not true," said Michael Polt.

mitrovica pika pika said...

"If they take Kosovo away from Serbia against it will show the west hates Serbs-especially Kosovo Serbs-and they will have to look in other directions for support."

Please do look in other direcions. I suggest becoming the smallest province of Russia.

ANYC said...

"Polt is incredibly dumb. Of course it will be the responsibility of the west for any radicalization of Serbia"
Yes he must be -that is why he is ambassador to your country and you, genious , are on the Albanian blog typing away paranoid statements.
Get real-most of you have delusions of grandeur, but reality of situation is that you are no that important to anyone. It is just amazing how you think that world will suffer if serbia turns radical. It is so simple, nobody cares what you will do to yourself...those are empty threats and US sees right through them.
Lets say you do turn radical (which you are actually right now), then what?!!
Nothing...

Serbs In Kosovo are in Danger said...

I don't believe the world will suffer if Serbia turns radical, the West will be resposible for it though. They probably wont care. So the world will not suffer.

If you think its paranoid to think that Serbs are in danger in Kosovo you are ignorant and why not post here? It's a blog about Kosovo. There are others but this one is always on Google News. So whatever!!!!

mitrovica pika pika said...

I don't believe the world will suffer if Serbia turns radical, the West will be resposible for it though. They probably wont care. So the world will not suffer."

Exactly no one will care. However serbs will suffer for it. As far as serbs in Kosova, they created the hell they find themselves in. Enjoy!

ANYC said...

"I don't believe the world will suffer if Serbia turns radical, the West will be resposible for it though. They probably wont care."

Again I disagree. Was the west resposnible when you turned radical in early 90's and tried to anahilate your neighbours? NO. It was your own doing. So stop blaming everyone else-for once take responsibility.

As far as paranoia goes-your name says it all. Serbs in Kosova have decided from the get go to aling with Milosevic and now Kostunica against Albanians. That in trun has brough the situation that they are in. Again don't go around blaiming others for your own created problems.

Serbs In Kosovo are in Danger said...

The west did nothing to keep Yugoslavia together. Germany was helping Croatia and Slovenia become independent. Not caring what that did to Serbs in Croatia which had a neo-nazi government. Ustashe or whatever. Serbs had to react to what happened. Same thing in Bosnia where Izetbegovich was calling Bosnia a muslim nation. Serbs had to react again.

Serbs in Kosovo are in danger. Are Serbs supposed to align with Serb killer Ceku? Serb killer Thaci? What Albanians are there that would align with Serbs. They are two seperate countries in the same province. TIME FOR PARTITION.

Dardania 2006 said...

Man you're set to go far with that mentality...

I sense paranoia...I suggest you see someone. (no irony/insult intended)

Saranda_Alb said...

Kristian,

That game was played in Sept 1987 for UEFA cup. Flamurtari eliminated Partizan Belgrade.
Serbs are such sore loosers aren't they? That the police beat the players because they won the game, shows that they not only lost the game, they also lost their mind. Such a weak people! Prishtina beat them in every sense of the word.

ANYC said...

"The west did nothing to keep Yugoslavia together"

Why should they?! Since when it was someone elses responsibility to keep your lame ass country together. That argument is idiotic.

Now as far as all your neighbours being against you and trying to kill you- maybe it is time for self examination. Oh yeah you forgot Slovenia there as well-I'm sure you have a reason you attacked them.

And if you want a partition -guess what you have to give up Presheva and Bujanovc. And further north Novi Pazar and Vojvodina-so be careful what you are wishing for....

ivan said...

O Siptarijo,

" And if you want a partition -guess what you have to give up Presheva and Bujanovc. And further north Novi Pazar and Vojvodina-so be careful what you are wishing for.... "

Let me remind you that in Bujanovac there are only 60% albanians, and in Preshevo there are 80%. The whole population of both provinces doesent exceed 100 K people. ITs even less, I think around 60K. So sure, I would be willing to give 60% of Bujanovac and 80% of Preshevo, and in return we would get all of the regions in Kosovo and Metohija where Serbs made a majority prior to 1999 ( before you ethnically clensed them).

As for Novi Pazar and Vojvodina, let us take that with Hungarians and Bosniaks. They are more civilized and I am sure we can all live side by side. but with you, partition, and then closure of borders.

mitrovica pika pika said...

"So sure, I would be willing to give 60% of Bujanovac and 80% of Preshevo, and in return we would get all of the regions in Kosovo and Metohija where Serbs made a majority prior to 1999 ( before you ethnically clensed them)."

Can you be more specific as to when prior to 1999. Maybe 1991,1981 or 1389.I cant believe vhis crap sewerbs want us to fall for. Use a number when its mos convinient to them prior to 1999 and then partition. Geez these fuckers are dumber than I could have possibly imagined.

Cvijus011 said...

Presevo - 38,943 people
Bujanovac - 49,238 people

(2001)

Cvijus011 said...

In both of these municipalities the Albanians number 54,795 people

mitrovica pika pika said...

Presevo - 38,943 people
Bujanovac - 49,238 people

(2001)


2001-serbs in Kosova 55000 so I guess we are even

Cvijus011 said...

2005 Survey of the Statistical Office of Kosovo:

Serbs in Kosovo between 126,000 and 140,000

Serbian refugees to return to Kosovo (figure from 2003 - before the March'04 ethnic cleansing): 233,938 (UNHCR)

ANYC said...

"I would be willing to give 60% of Bujanovac and 80% of Preshevo, and in return we would get all of the regions in Kosovo and Metohija where Serbs made a majority prior to 1999 "

Oh nice-why don't we go back 1000 years and use those numbers when you werent even on the balkans then.
The logic is rather simple, serb. You started a war and you lost it (actually you are o for 4). You can't have rewards for losing.
Learn to deal with it...

Cvijus011 said...

anyc,

"Oh nice-why don't we go back 1000 years"

Wow anyc you are really suprising me, how nice, this means Skadar, Dyrrachion and Tirana will become provincial cities of Serbia. Thanks for the idea anyc

Note to the others before you accuse me of expansionism: This is anyc's idea, not mine so discuss it with him.

Cheers

NYoutlawyer said...

Oh come on, being a shqripter isn't all that bad, fellow Serbians. I was a shqripter once for Halloween. Had that white conehead yalmaka, five teeth, 2 upper and 3 lower, urine stains on my pants, and a tin cup of course. I scared a lot of people, but didn't get much candy though.

Blog what you want all. The West makes the moves, and none of you have any say really.

mitrovica pika pika said...

"2005 Survey of the Statistical Office of Kosovo:

Serbs in Kosovo between 126,000 and 140,000"

Half of those are actually serb war criminals from croatia and bosnia.I wouldnt be surprised if Karadzic and Mladic are in one of those enclaves being guraded by french troops.

ANYC said...

"Wow anyc you are really suprising me, how nice, this means Skadar, Dyrrachion and Tirana will become provincial cities of Serbia."

Man, your version of history surely differs from what the rest of the world knows. Afterall those city names are serb names aren't they. Give it a rest serb-it is over-don't try to change the past over an argumnent in a blog, save it for your academy of sciences so you can lie to your future generations, the exact same way you been lied to.

mitrovica pika pika said...

"Blog what you want all. The West makes the moves, and none of you have any say really."

Really black cock ,sucker. this fucker seem to have realised now what a child knew years ago.

"You can't have rewards for losing."

I disagree they won half of Bosnia with rape and genocide.

NYoutlawyer said...

You have something against Blacks, picketina? The rest of blog is garbage, as usual.

BTW, how much do you make pan-handling a week?

NYoutlawyer said...

I just put a ceku autographed tin cup on ebay, wonder how much I'll get for it?

Trick or treat?

Cvijus011 said...

ny,

" I was a shqripter once for Halloween. Had that white conehead yalmaka, five teeth, 2 upper and 3 lower, urine stains on my pants, and a tin cup of course. I scared a lot of people, but didn't get much candy though."

Maybe if you wopuld start saying the typical bulshit such as "Ahhh Serbs raped me, killed me, poisoned me,etc" you would earn some money. However, be careful when you dress up again as a Shqipter, maybe the police will arrest you for for thinking that you're an Albanian thief trying to still from the American grannies and kids :))))

PS - You forgot the shit on behind :))))

ANYC said...

Ah Civijus, you piece of crap. Regardless how moderate and educated you try to portray yourself, your true colors come out whenever there is a chance to be antialbanian. You had absolutely no arguments with regard to discussion in hand and you resort to NYlawyers tactics-
I always expected this from you...it was just a matter of time. Excellent.

Cvijus011 said...

oohh mr. anyc cut the crap
I quited giving any arguments over here since the only thing I got was BS a la Mitrovica picka picka (btw why don't you nag to Mitrovica for his behavior?)
Bare in mind, you don't prove yourself anything better so hush.
For this perception that the world has about the history 1000 years ago, you mean Albania, Kosovo and western Macedonia? Is that the entire world?
Btw, every time I say to German and other history professors that you Shqiptars claim you're Illyrians they look at me as if I told them that Queen Victoria was Chinese. But my favorite reaction is when they compliment me on a good joke consierning this claim. That's what the world knows.

Ny, maybe you scared people cause they thought you were selling drugs.

Hellenic-pride said...

hey what for are these white caps?
to clean your asses?

ANYC said...

"Btw, every time I say to German and other history professors that you Shqiptars claim you're Illyrians they look at me as if I told them that Queen Victoria was Chinese. But my favorite reaction is when they compliment me on a good joke consierning this claim."


I think you need to change schools than as you are not getting what you are paying for. Everytime I claim something I attach sources -unlike your comments...
Here is what true historians say(note the source, unlike your b/s from serb historians):



THE ANCIENT ILLYRIANS

Source: Based on information from R. Ernest Dupuy and Trevor N. Dupuy, The Encyclopedia of Military History, New York, 1970, 95; Herman Kinder and Werner Hilgemann, The Anchor Atlas of World History, 1, New York, 1974, 90, 94; and Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15, New York, 1975, 1092.

Most historians of the Balkans believe the Albanian people are in large part descendants of the ancient Illyrians, who, like other Balkan peoples, were subdivided into tribes and clans. The name Albania is derived from the name of an Illyrian tribe called the Arber, or Arbereshë, and later Albanoi, that lived near Durrës. The Illyrians were Indo-European tribesmen who appeared in the western part of the Balkan Peninsula about 1000 B.C., a period coinciding with the end of the Bronze Age and beginning of the Iron Age. They inhabited much of the area for at least the next millennium. Archaeologists associate the Illyrians with the Hallstatt culture, an Iron Age people noted for production of iron and bronze swords with winged-shaped handles and for domestication of horses. The Illyrians occupied lands extending from the Danube, Sava, and Morava rivers to the Adriatic Sea and the Sar Mountains. At various times, groups of Illyrians migrated over land and sea into Italy.
The Illyrians carried on commerce and warfare with their neighbors. The ancient Macedonians probably had some Illyrian roots, but their ruling class adopted Greek cultural characteristics. The Illyrians also mingled with the Thracians, another ancient people with adjoining lands on the east. In the south and along the Adriatic Sea coast, the Illyrians were heavily influenced by the Greeks, who founded trading colonies there. The present-day city of Durrës evolved from a Greek colony known as Epidamnos, which was founded at the end of the seventh century B.C. Another famous Greek colony, Apollonia, arose between Durrës and the port city of Vlorë.
The Illyrians produced and traded cattle, horses, agricultural goods, and wares fashioned from locally mined copper and iron. Feuds and warfare were constant facts of life for the Illyrian tribes, and Illyrian pirates plagued shipping on the Adriatic Sea. Councils of elders chose the chieftains who headed each of the numerous Illyrian tribes. From time to time, local chieftains extended their rule over other tribes and formed short-lived kingdoms. During the fifth century B.C., a well-developed Illyrian population center existed as far north as the upper Sava River valley in what is now Slovenia. Illyrian friezes discovered near the present-day Slovenian city of Ljubljana depict ritual sacrifices, feasts, battles, sporting events, and other activities.
The Illyrian kingdom of Bardhyllus became a formidable local power in the fourth century B.C. In 358 B.C., however, Macedonia's Philip II, father of Alexander the Great, defeated the Illyrians and assumed control of their territory as far as Lake Ohrid (see fig. 5). Alexander himself routed the forces of the Illyrian chieftain Clitus in 335 B.C., and Illyrian tribal leaders and soldiers accompanied Alexander on his conquest of Persia. After Alexander's death in 323 B.C., independent Illyrian kingdoms again arose. In 312 B.C., King Glaucius expelled the Greeks from Durrës. By the end of the third century, an Illyrian kingdom based near what is now the Albanian city of Shkodër controlled parts of northern Albania, Montenegro, and Hercegovina. Under Queen Teuta, Illyrians attacked Roman merchant vessels plying the Adriatic Sea and gave Rome an excuse to invade the Balkans.
In the Illyrian Wars of 229 and 219 B.C., Rome overran the Illyrian settlements in the Neretva River valley. The Romans made new gains in 168 B.C., and Roman forces captured Illyria's King Gentius at Shkodër, which they called Scodra, and brought him to Rome in 165 B.C. A century later, Julius Caesar and his rival Pompey fought their decisive battle near Durrës (Dyrrachium). Rome finally subjugated recalcitrant Illyrian tribes in the western Balkans dwing the region of Emperor Tiberius in A.D. 9. The Romans divided the lands that make up present-day Albania among the provinces of Macedonia, Dalmatia, and Epirus (see fig. 2).
For about four centuries, Roman rule brought the Illyrian-populated lands economic and cultural advancement and ended most of the enervating clashes among local tribes. The Illyrian mountain clansmen retained local authority but pledged allegiance to the emperor and acknowledged the authority of his envoys. During a yearly holiday honoring the Caesars, the Illyrian mountaineers swore loyalty to the emperor and reaffirmed their political rights. A form of this tradition, known as the kuvend, has survived to the present day in northern Albania.
The Romans established numerous military camps and colonies and completely latinized the coastal cities. They also oversaw the construction of aqueducts and roads, including the Via Egnatia, a famous military highway and trade route that led from Durrës through the Shkumbin River valley to Macedonia and Byzantium (later Constantinople --see Glossary). Copper, asphalt, and silver were extracted from the mountains. The main exports were wine, cheese, oil, and fish from Lake Scutari and Lake Ohrid. Imports included tools, metalware, luxury goods, and other manufactured articles. Apollonia became a cultural center, and Julius Caesar himself sent his nephew, later the Emperor Augustus, to study there.
Illyrians distinguished themselves as warriors in the Roman legions and made up a significant portion of the Praetorian Guard. Several of the Roman emperors were of Illyrian origin, including Diocletian (284-305), who saved the empire from disintegration by introducing institutional reforms, and Constantine the Great (324-37)--who accepted Christianity and transferred the empire's capital from Rome to Byzantium, which he called Constantinople. Emperor Justinian (527-65)--who codified Roman law, built the most famous Byzantine church, the Hagia Sofia, and reextended the empire's control over lost territories- -was probably also an Illyrian.
Christianity came to the Illyrian-populated lands in the first century A.D. Saint Paul wrote that he preached in the Roman province of Illyricum, and legend holds that he visited Durrës. When the Roman Empire was divided into eastern and western halves in A.D. 395, the lands that now make up Albania were administered by the Eastern Empire but were ecclesiastically dependent on Rome. In A.D. 732, however, a Byzantine emperor, Leo the Isaurian, subordinated the area to the patriarchate of Constantinople. For centuries thereafter, the Albanian lands became an arena for the ecclesiastical struggle between Rome and Constantinople. Most Albanians living in the mountainous north became Roman Catholic, while in the southern and central regions, the majority became Orthodox.

Fatos said...

Yeah Cvijus I think this is the final nail in your argument(s)'s coffin. If I were you I'd apologize to all in here, accept Albanians for what they are -> Illyrians - and start educating your elementary school teachers about the ancient history of the Balkans - all this for the sake of spreading true knowledge all over the world.

NYoutlawyer said...

shqrifters are not illyrians, albanian scholars recently disproved that. It was discussed on this blog. albaniacs called him a traitor, said he really wasn't an albaniac. Typical comeback from albaniacs.

I read that shqrifters were nomads, and could not really be linked to any one ancient civilization. They pretty much settled wherever they could to leech of the land. Pretty much as they do today.

Cvijus011 said...

"I think you need to change schools than as you are not getting what you are paying for"

Yeah ANYC I should go to Shqiptar schools and get my brain washed and accept the greatest fabrication in the European history. The two greatest experts on the Illarians, Wilkes and Hamp (both of them spent year in Albania and Kosovo doing researches), explictly deny that Albanians are descedants of the Illyrians. Especially when the language is concerned the Illyrian is a CENTUM type whereas Albanian is a SATEM one and a SATEM one is impossible to descent from a CENTUM. It is like saying that Italian originates from Japanese. Even though Romanian is a Latin language, it has the most Illyrian elements than any other language (refer to Hamp).

" If I were you I'd apologize to all in here, accept Albanians for what they are -> Illyrians - and start educating your elementary school teachers about the ancient history of the Balkans"

I think you Albanians need to wake up and face it that your nationalist claims will just bring you to a bigger hatred with your neighbors. Instead of poisoning your children, why don't you teach them your true history and descedance (Avar-Hunic) instead of falsifying your own history and trying to prove the already established history of your neighbors as tales. Just look at it, if you're trying so desparately to prove through your chauvinistic propagnda and other pens-for-hire that you're Illyrians and take so easily for granted, it means that doubts exist.

Cvijus011 said...

Hell, any Albanian scholar that disaproved this theory was immediatly prossecuted. It is like in the Nazi period in Germany when somebody said that Hebrews are humans indeed - dirctly to Dachau.

Cvijus011 said...

There is an Illyrian myth, with which Albanian culture has been flirting for at least 150 years, and as a myth it can't be questioned (for it has all the answers). There is also a very tentative Illyrian science, based mainly on archaeology, and on some data transmitted by Ancient Greek and Latin Historians.

These inscriptions, being totally alien to Albanian, show that the Illyrian question is extremely complicated, and that it isn't likely to be resolved, unless fundamental epigraphic discoveries are made.



The great Illyrologist Hans Krahe himself was no supporter of the Illyrian theory about the origin of Albanians. In his late years he came to understand that most of his paleolinguistic theories were generally wrong. Krahe started by finding Illyrian traces everywhere in Europe, but then it was made clear that all he had found were Indo-European traces -- and nobody had any doubt that Indo-European tribes had been in Europe for a long many years.



Onomastics is of no great help in settling linguistic and ethnogenetic issues. Let's have a look at some important place names in Albanian territories, like Dajti, Shkodra, Durresi, Vlora, Burreli, Drini, Shkumbini, Tirana, etc. Are they Albanian? We can't say that, for there are no Albanian words that would explain them (as we explain, for example, Kruja with "krue" - fountain).



This might well be true, but seems pathetic in front of the fact that we can't explain through Albanian words the place names we currently use, let alone the Illyrian ones. So what?



Let's move up in time, and reach the Middle Ages. In the Middle Ages the Albanians were somewhere there, though their first mention is in the 11th century (or 12th, I'm not sure). Where were they living? Where are the places they have named after their common words (technically called appellatives)? The south is full -- literally full -- of Slavic place names, especially the areas of Vlora, Tepelena, Skrapar, Mallakaster, Gramsh, Cermenike, Moker, Korce, Erseke.



My personal opinion is that the issue of Albanians descending or not from Illyrians doesn't deserve the interest it has traditionally aroused. There is absolutely NO Illyrian cultural legacy among Albanians today. In a certain sense, Illyrians (with their less fortunate fellows, the Pelasgians) are a pure creation of Albanian romanticism.



Ardian Vebiu
famous Albanian historian

Cvijus011 said...

The Albanian nation (intended as the totality of all Albanians) need myths, for it is based on myths -- as any other nation. The Albanian culture needs myths, for it won't function without myths. When I take part in the spiritual life of my nation, I have to speak a language of myths, otherwise my discourse won't be understood. This means that I -- and I think a lot of other Albanians as well, for there's nothing special in this attitude of mine -- understand myth as a form of language. There are, then, those, who assign a reality to myth. The communication between the two parts is fortunately still possible. The same is true for other people as well. There national myths are more elaborated, culturalized, assimilated. These myths become particularily active when there is a contact between two peoples (be it disguised as a contact between two individuals). This contact takes place mostly on a mythic dimension. But it TAKES place, however. When I speak for the first time with a nationalist foreigner, Scanderbeg, and Albanian Muslims, and Ali Pasha Tepelena, and the Ismails Qemali e Kadare, and Ahmet Zogu, not to mention Enver Hoxha e Sali Berisha, are there with me. I can't get rid of them, without getting rid of my being Albanian.

Ardian Vebiu

NYoutlawyer said...

What the fuck is so great about illyrians anyway? These fucks were a bunch of pirates, some customs never change I see.

If albaniacs want to be illyrians fine with me. Who gives a shit? You're still a bunch of corrupt, dirty leeches.

Fatos said...

To the ignorant above: Illyrians populated the land you call home just about 2700 years before Slavics moved down from the jungles of today's Russia.

To cvijus: what exactly is your point? Dont spend time proving something that has been proven a long long time ago - no need to reinvent the wheel. There is no question that Albanians predate Slavs in Europe.

You dont have to look that far back to realize that your country has multiple times tried to annex (savagely) lands around itself, including Albania, Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia, and Kosova.

I think your time would be better spent in helping your brothers at home (Serbia) get civilzed and get as much rights for K-Serbs as possibble - because not in your wildest dream will Kosova ever be under Serbia's rule again - if u havent realized that yet I am affraid I must call you naive.

Fatos said...

NYoutlawyer said...

shqrifters are not illyrians, albanian scholars recently disproved that. It was discussed on this blog. albaniacs called him a traitor, said he really wasn't an albaniac. Typical comeback from albaniacs.


http://www.iwpr.net/?p=bcr&s=f&o=256839&apc_state=henpbcr


Journalists and NGOs face bombs threats, beatings and insults if they probe too deeply into Serbia’s role in the Balkan wars.

Does your ignorance have an end?

ANYC said...

Cvijus
You and your nation have been trying to dispell this for years now.
Below is an article (you can see it complete under my blog)with references-unlike yours.

Pay close attention to the paragraph of what a so called MR Garasanin from Serb academy did-typical of that institution-which obviously you are a victim of:

Dr. Aleksander STIPCEVIC

THE QUESTION OF ILLYRIAN-ALBANIAN CONTINUITY AND ITS POLITICAL TOPICALITY TODAY


....After World War II, but especially after the serious events in Kosova in 1981, Serbian archaeologists set to work to refute the theory of the Illyrian ethnic of Albanians.

The politicisation of the problem that was later to become the hallmark of Serbian archaeology and historiography began with the Croat linguist Henrik Baric, who had close ties with Serbian academic and political circles. (6) Baric was a very capable linguist, but the motives impelling him to formulate his Thraco-Moesian theory of the origin of the Albanians remain dubious. His theory rests on linguistic data. The fact that the same linguistic material can be used in support of such diverse theories may alarm any student approaching this problem. Without denying linguists their right to formulate their conclusions on the basis of linguistic material, we must say that there also exist today a large quantity of archaeological, anthropological, ethnological, and ethnomusicological data. The large amount of research in recent decades has thus made it much easier today to tackle the problem of the ethnic origins of the Albanians than 50 or 100 years ago. The result achieved by workers in different disciplines in recent decades have reduced the importance of the work that relied on now obsolete linguistc evidence, and have made the autochthony of the Albanians, i.e. increasingly indisputable.

This conflict between new scientific result and the defenders of now obsolete theories is a phenomenon that can be explained by the increasing politicisation of the issue of Albanian ethnogenesis. In fact, the theory of Albanian autochthony has never been disputed with such determination and savagery as today, precisely when so much scientific proof has been produced in its support. Nevertheless, the number of researchers still today refusing to take into consideration the many arguments supplied by different academic disciplines has shrunk, or, more accurately, absolutely the only researchers who deny the theory of Albanian autochthony are Serbian. (7) Serbian archaeologists and historians began long ago to dispute the autochthony theory, but this opposition increased especially after the great Albanian revolt in Kosova in 1981. It was therefore a consequence of a political event rather than of new scientific data.

The Serbian archaeologist Milutin Garasanin represents a special case. In 1955, he wrote an article in the Prishtina periodical "Përparimi", in which he asserted that the Albanians are the direct descendants of the Illyrians. (8) In the years that followed, Garasanin increasingly fell into line with other Serbian researchers who denied any such descent. This shift became still more evident in connection with the problem of the ethnic allegiance of the Dardanians, who inhabited the Kosova region. This problem became one of the most disputed in archaeology and history, assuming apolitical character after 1981. The Serbs vigorously attacked the idea that the Dardanians were ethnically Illyrian. Not because they were led to this conclusion by scientific evidence, but purely because Kosova was "the cradle of Serbian history" and "holy soil" for the Serbs, and as such could not have been inhabited by a people that were of Illyrian stock and hence claimed by their descendants, the Albanias.

In the past, Serbian researchers had not always been of one mind in allocating the Kosova region to the ancient Daco-Moesians. Milutin Garasanin himself, in his survey of prehistoric Serbia in 1973, openly admits that on the basis of their place names and personal names the Dardanians can be considered Illyrians, and that a Thracian and perhaps Dacian element is evident only in the eastern parts of their territories. (9)

However, when the Serbian Academy of Arts and sciences in 1986 organized a series of conferences on the ties between the Illyrians and the Albanians, this same Garasanin announced that the Dardanians cannot be considered Illyrians because they were ethnically more closely connected with the Daco-Moesian substratum. (10)

It is easy to explain this change in Garasanin’s stand. We are now in a period of history in which relations between the Albanians and Serbs of Kosova, and not only within this region, have dramatically deteriorated and no Serbian researcher can freely express his opinion over the Illyrian-Albanian question without exposing himself to the danger of changes of high treason.

It would be impossible to trace here the progress of the press, television, and radio campaign waged by Serbian researchers against the idea of Albanian autochthony. It is enough to recall an entertaining incident in this campaign which took place in Zagreb in 1982. Two years previously, in 1980, the first volume of the Encyclopaedia of Yugoslavia (Secon Edition) had been published, in which there were two entries, one entitled "Albanci" (Albanians), and the other "Albansko-Jugoslavenski odnosi" (Albanian-Yugoslavian relations). On pages 75-79, the Albanian historian from Kosova, Ali Hadri, had written the part of the entry under "Albanci" that dealt with "the origin and development of the Albanian people," in which he stated that the Albanians are the descendants of the Illyrians. The linguist Idriz Ajeti said the same, considering the Albanian language a successor to the Illyrian tongue.

When this volume had come off the press, the Albanian revolt in Kosova had broken aut, and when the Serbian edition of this same book was under preparation, the Serbian representatives on the Encyclopaedia’s central editorial board rejected the text that had already been published in the Croat edition (which they themselves had approved), and insisted that the two entries should be reformulated according to the ideas of Serbian historians. A long and bitter debate then took place within the editorial board, and was soon reflected in the Zagreb and Belgrade newspapers.(11) Ten contributions from historians and archaeologist were commissioned in order to prepare new versions of these entries.

At that time, the Serbian members of the editorial board could not impose their ideas on others. This meant that the new version that was printed in subsequent editions of the Encyclopaedia of Yugoslavia included textual changes in the sections dealing all mention of the continuity between the Illyrians and Albanians.(12)

Although unable to change what had already been published in the Croat edition, the publisher of the Encyclopaedia of Yugoslavia printed the new versions of the two entries and sent them to subscribers, requesting them to insert them in the appropriate place.

The debate within the Encyclopaedia’s editorial board was also echoed in political circles. At the ninth Congress of the Serbian Communist Party held in Belgrade on 27-29 May 1982, a bitter argument broke out over the ethnic origins of the Albanians. The congress of a political party was of course not the proper place to discuss an academic problem of this kind, but the question had apparently assumed a political character and could not be confined to academic circles.

It was nothing les than the incident involving the two entries in the Encyclopaedia of Yugoslavia that became the spark setting off this unexpected debate at the Serbian Communist Party: Congress. The Albanian linguist Idriz Ajeti referred to this scandalous incident in his speech in order to show that many Serbian researchers and journalists were politicising the issue to the extent that only a political forum could settle it, by political means.

Disgusted by the assaults of the newspapers, Professor Ajeti movingly defended at this congress the theory of the linguistic ties between the Illyrian and Albanian languages, and also the ethnic continuity between the Illyrians and the Albanians (13).

His speech met with an immediate response in the congress hall.

Pretending not to understand why a purely academic problem should become a discussion topic at a political congress, the Serbian historian Jovan Deretic asked in pathetic tones what point there was in politicising the question of the Albanians’ ethnic origin.

Why should the Albanians be the descendants of the Illyrians and not of the Thracians ? There was no point in dragging this question out of its academic context – on condition that the Thracian theory was accepted. The Illyrian theory could not be correct, simply because it was an expression of Albanian imperialism, nationalism, etc. (14) According to Deretic, the Illyrian theory had "a slight whiff of racism" that reminded him of the theory of a pure Aryan race, "and we know very well who inspired that theory." (15) Immediately after Deretic, Petar Zivadinovic took the floor. Zivadinovic was elected a member of the Central Committee of the Serbian Communist Party at this congress. For him, science had still not solved the problem of the ethnic origins of the Albanians, but, although he had never dealt with such academic questions, he knew very well that the Albanians could not be descended from the Illyrians.

The historian Sima Cirkovic also though that the Illyrian theory "stank of racism." (16)

The newspapers at this time were full of articles about the speeches at the conference. "Politika," a Belgrade newspaper with little tolerance for the Albanians, published an article under the headline, "No Campaign, But Creative Criticism."

This newspaper apparently did not stop to consider that this stream of articles written by people who did more to compromise these authors than the Illyrian theory of the ethnic origin of the Albanians.

The book "The Albanians and Their Territories," published by the Albanian Academy of Sciences in Tirana in 1982, and in an English edition in 1985, caused considerable commotion. Albanian authors from Kosova were attacked especially harshly because their work demonstrated the autochthony of the Albanians in the province of Kosova. (17)

These authors attempted in vain to explain that all the articles included in this volume had been previously published in Yugoslavia and were therefore common knowledge long before the book appeared. (18) The attacks persisted because this book discussed what was the most delicate political problem in Kosova.

The campaign against the Illyrian theory intensified alongside the progressive deterioration of the political situation in Kosova. Serbia’s best-known historians appeared on the scene, including the linguist Pavle Ivic, who proceeded to ruin a large part of his own scientific work in order to prove that Serbian and Croatian are a single language. He had never tackled the problems of the Illyrians or Albanians, but it nevertheless emerged that the Albanians could only be of Thracian, not Illyrian origin.

In an interview for the Belgrade weekly NIN, Professor Ivic listed the linguists who have considered the Albanian language a descendant of Thracian and then recalled the well-known but now obsolete argument that the Albanians could not have lived on the Adriatic and Ionian coast, because they possessed word for fish.

According to Professor Ivic, the problem of the Illyrian origin of the Albanians is complicated, but there is nevertheless no question of any doubt that the Albanians are not descendants of the Illyrians and are therefore not indigenous to the province of Kosova. This is precisely what the journalist interviewing him and the magazine’s readers wanted to hear. (19)

A controversy then sprang up in the pages of this magazine between Professor Ivic, Mehmet Hyseni, and Shkelzen Maliqi. (20)

On one hand, all this controversy and debate encouraged the Albanians to study more deeply the problem of their ethnic origin from the archaeological and ethnographic point of view, while it drove Serbian researchers to the point of denying the results of their own work. In 1982, when this problem had become an inflammatory one in what was then Yugoslavia, the Academy of Sciences in Albania organised a national conference on the formation of the Albanian people, their language, and culture. At this conference, which was attended by many foreign historians, many specialists tried to present all the evidence that their different academic disciplines could offer to solve the problem of Illyrian-Albanian continuity. (21)

As in reply to this conference, the Serbs had the idea of organising in Belgrade, under the auspices of the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences, a series of conferences that were to tackle problems also dealt with in Tirana. The conferences, that were attended solely by Serbian historians, took place in May and June 1986. Their papers were later published in a book, in Serbian and French editions. (22)

A careful reading of the contributions of Ms. F. Papazoglu and Professor M. Garasanin reveals at least a kind of uncertainty in their arguments. These writers sometimes even imply that they do not favour an unconditional rejection of the Illyrian theory of the Albanians’ ethnic origin.

Of course, writers of propaganda have paid no attention to the academic evidence, and have not grasped these authors’ doubts, but only the evidence that suit their anti-Albanian campaign. Aware of the simplification which the complicated problem of the Albanians’ ethnic origins had undergone, professor Garasanin was careful to point out that the Albanians are undoubtedly a palaeo-Balkan people and that the Illyrian element played a part, albeit a minor one, in their formation.

Garasanin asserted that there can be no question of a direct continuity between the Illyrians and the Albanians, because the Illyrians disappeared from history during the five centuries of Roman occupation. The Albanians are therefore a people who were formed in the middle ages from small remnants of peoples, including the Illyrians, who inhabited the western Balkans in classical and mediaeval times.

There is no need to continue. However, we would like to end by emphasising that the misrepresentations of the Serbian academic community in connection with the ethnic origin of the Albanians are part of a long and painful story of abuses of this kind, which have been nothing but political propaganda paving the way for military repression. This is the meaning of the way for military repression. This is the meaning of the campaign by Serbian historians and journalists against the autochthony of the Albanians in the lands they inhabit.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



References:

"Oratio fratris Vincentii Priboevii sacrae theologiae professoris ordinis praedicatorum De origine successibusque slavorum, "Venetiis, 1532. Modem bilingual (Latin and Croatian) edition by Professor Grga Novak (Vinko Pribojevic, "O podrijetlu i zgidama Slavena," Zagreb, Jugoslovenska akademija znanosti i umjetnosti, 1951. Compare Pribojevic’s ideas on pan-slavism with Professor Novak’s introduction to his 1951 edition, and to Alois Schmaus, "Vincentius priboevius, ein Vorlaeufer der Panslavismus," in "Jahrbuecher fuer die Geschichte Osteuropas," I, 1952, pp. 243-254; Veljko Gortan, Sizgoric i Pribojevic," "Filologija," 2, 1959, pp. 149-152.
The history of the illyrian idea among the slavs has been written Reinhard Lauer, "Genese und Funktion des Illyrischen Ideologems in den suedslawischen Literaturen, 16. Bis anfang des 19. Jahrhunderts," in "Ethnogenese und Staatsbildung in Suedosteuropa," Klaus-Detlev Grothusen, Goettingen, 1974, pp. 116-143.
Ljudevit Gaj, "Tko su bili stari Iliri?," "Danica ilirska," 5 (1839), Nr.10, pp.37-39; Nr.11, pp.41-43; Nr.12, pp. 46-48; Nr. 13, pp. 49-51; Nr.15, pp. 58-59.
For example, S. Popovic, "Skiti, Iliri, Slavi," in "Letopis Matice srpske," 64 (1844) pp. 67-80.
Bogoslav Sulek, "Sta namjeravaju Iliri?" Beograd, 1844. See the historical commentary on this pamphlet by Antun Barac, Hrvatska knjizevnist, I. Knjizevnost ilirizma, zagreb. Jugoslovenska akademija znanosti i umjetnosti, 1954, pp. 43-44, etc.
See his studies, "Ilirske jezicne studije," Rad. JAZU knj.272, 1948, pp.157-208; "Poreklo Arbanasa u svetlu jezika," in "Lingvisticke studije," Sarajevo, 1954, pp.7-48; "Mbi origjinen e gjuhës shqipe," "Jeta e re." 4, 1952, Nr.3, pp. 205-211.
There are exceptions, e.g. Slobodan Jovanovic, "Jugosloveni i Albanci," "Ideje: Casopis za teoriju savremenog drustva," 1987, Nr. 5-6, pp. 181-185.
Milutin Garasanin, "Ilirët dhe prejardhja e tyre," "Përparimi," 1953, Nr.6, pp. 323-331.
Milutin Garasanin, "Preistorija na tlu SR Srbije," vol.II, Beograd, Srpska knjizevna zadruga, 1973, p. 523.
Milutin Garasanin, "Zakljucna razmatranja," in: "Iliri i Albanci," Beograd, 1988, p. 362.
Ibro Osmani, "Dogovor o spornim tekstovima?," "Vjesnik," 19 June 1982, p.17; Ibro Osmani, "Kriterium i vetem – ai shkencor," "Rilindja," 19 June 1982, p. 12; Milos Misovic, "Kuda ide Jugoslavija?" "NIN," Nr. 1,678, 27 February 1983, p.31-32.
The Prishtina historian Ali Hadri strongly rejected the objections raised by the Serbian group on the editorial board in a long reply that was published in Albanian under the title "Reply to Comments on the Historical Text of the Entries "Albanians," and "Albanian-Yugoslav Relations" in the Encyclopaedia of Yugoslavia," published in the review "Kosova," Nr.11, 1982, pp.217-259. A summary of this text was published in the Zagreb weekly "Danas," Nr. 16, 8 June 1982, p. 14.
His report was published in prishtina: "Mbi origjinen ilire të gjuhës shqipe," "Rilindja," 29 May 1982, p.14.
Jovan Deretic, "Cemu sve to sluzi?," "Danas," Nr. 16,8 June 1982, pp. 62-63.
This assertion was strongly criticised by the Croat writer Ivan Lovrenovic in his article, "Miris kao kriterij," "Danas," Nr. 17, 15 June 1982, p. 17.
For further information about this dispute, see Teodor Andjelic, "Ilirsko-albanske enigma," "NIN," Nr. 1,640, 6 June 1982, pp. 30-32.
Milos Misovic, "Grehovi i gresnici," "NIN," Nr. 1,660, 24 November 1982, pp. 16-17.
Provodom knjige "Albanci i njihova ognjista," "NIN," Nr. 1,665, 28 November 1982, p. 2.p.
Milo Gligorijevic, "Albanija i Kosovo: seobei teritori," "NIN," Nr. 1,664, 21 November 1982, pp. 32-35.
Mehmet Hyseni, "Za nauku, bez spekulacija," "NIN," Nr. 1,666, 5 December 1982, pp. 2-3; Shkelzen Maliqi, "Mistifikacija istoriografije," "NIN," Nr. 1,667, 12 December 1982, pp. 3, 6; Pavle Ivic, "Naucna tastina radi osporovanja nauke," "NIN," Nr. 1,667, 12 December 1982, pp. 6, 19;Pavle Ivic, "Istorijski mitovi i indoktrinacija," "NIN," Nr. 1,671, 9 January 1983, pp. 6,13; Shkelzen Maliqi, "Mistifikacija istoriografije," "NIN," Nr. 1,673, 23 January 1983, pp. 2-3; Pavle Ivic, "Pravo nauke na istinu," "NIN," Nr. 1,675, 6 February 1983, p.19.
The papers of this conference were published in French, "Problemes de la formation du peuple albanais, de sa langue et de sa culture (Choix de documents), " Tirana, Editions "8 Nëntori," 1985.
Iliri i Albanci – Les Illyriens et les Albanais, Beograd, Srpska akademija nauka i umetnosti, 1988.

WARchild said...

Cvijus,

Tirana was founded in the 1614 and, as you might have guessed with the help of your masters degree in History, can not be Illyrian related.

All,
How do the posts on this thread relate to the actual article?

Anyc,
Si mundem me kontaktu me ty?

Cvijus011 said...

"Dont spend time proving something that has been proven a long long time ago - no need to reinvent the wheel. There is no question that Albanians predate Slavs in Europe."

Typical Albanian, when you have nothing more to say them you try to prove us as idiots. Even your intellectuals prove you wrong but you don't give up. Dr. Ardian Vebiu is right, you need myths in order to live and breathe. It would be better that you help yourselves than trying to twist it around and put the blame to the Serbs. Albanians have a great intellectual potential, however they have to escape from the mythology doctrines propagated by Hoxha and his stalinist group, the doctirnes that are still extremelly strong in the Albanian society and I think that dr. Ardian Vebiu, dr. Fatos Ljubonja, dr. Ardian Qosi etc. are those that can help you face reality.

"Journalists and NGOs face bombs threats, beatings and insults if they probe too deeply into Serbia’s role in the Balkan wars."

In Albania intellectuals with ani-nationalistic-mythologistic stnaces face extremelly long prison sentences and death threats.

"Tirana was founded in the 1614 and, as you might have guessed with the help of your masters degree in History, can not be Illyrian related."

I never said Tirana was related to the Illyrians.

Cvijus011 said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Cvijus011 said...

fatso,

"your country had lost 6:0 in the world cup (a world record for received goals)"

Well I'm sorry to disappoint you but, the world records are when Hungary beated South Korea 9-0 (1954), Hungary beated El Salvador 10-1 (1982) and Yugoslavia has beaten Zaire 9-0 (1974). You see, we are record holders after all, sorry that it is not in the way you would like it to be :)

Kristian said...

To: Cv....



You see, we are record holders after all, sorry that it is not in the way you would like it to be :)


Maybe he should of rephrased it as the worst european country to hold such a record.

Just a clarification then!

Cvijus011 said...

Actually Albania as a European country holds the worst record of losing against Hungary 12-0.

Kristian said...

We were talking about the world cup right?????


Or are you trying to show your overwhelming superiority!!


Touche!

Kristian said...

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE WORST EUROPEAN DEFEAT AT THE WORLD CUP RIGHT???????



Just wanted to see if you heard me right!


Peace to all!


P.S. What really counts is the WORLD CUP! Not the EuroCup nor the Copa das Americas, nor the Asia Cup nor the (african country cup) which I can't recall the name of!

Kristian said...

BY A EUROPEAN TEAM!!!!!!!!!



CLARIFICATION!

Bg anon said...

Sorry to change the subject but I was sent this:

BELGRADE–Serbian president Vojislav Kostunica deployed more than 30,000 peacekeeping troops to the U.S. Monday, pledging full support to the troubled North American nation as it struggles to establish democracy.

We must do all we can to support free elections in America and allow democracy to gain a foothold there," Kostunica said. "The U.S. is a major player in the Western Hemisphere and its continued stability is vital to Serbian interests in that region."

Kostunica urged Al Gore, the U.S. opposition-party leader who is refusing to recognize the nation's Nov. 7 election results, to "let the democratic process take its course."

"Mr. Gore needs to acknowledge the will of the people and concede that he has lost this election," Kostunica said. "Until America's political figures learn to respect the institutions that have been put in place, the nation will never be a true democracy."

Serbian forces have been stationed throughout the U.S., with an emphasis on certain trouble zones. Among them are Oregon, Florida, and eastern Tennessee, where Gore set up headquarters in Bush territory. An additional 10,000 troops are expected to arrive in the capital city of Washington, D.C. by Friday.

Though Kostunica has pledged to work with U.S. leaders, he did not rule out the possibility of economic sanctions if the crisis is not resolved soon.

"For democracy to take root and flourish, it must be planted in the rich soil of liberty. And the cornerstone of liberty is elections free of tampering or corruption," Kostunica said. "Should America prove itself incapable of learning this lesson on its own, the international community may be forced to take stronger measures."

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/38646

On myths, its perfectly normal for nations / ethnic groups to have myths and no one side has a monopoly on them. Dont see whats controversial about that.

anyc I dont see why you should feel joy when you believe your predjudices about Cvijus are confirmed. I feel joy in what we have in common not in defining what is my supposed enemy.

Kristian said...

Team P W D L GF GA GDIF PTS %


18 Yugoslavia 344 149 71 124 641 567 +74 518 50.2


99 Albania 71 25 19 27 80 105 -25 94 44.1


175 Serbia and Montenegro 17 3 5 9 17 22 -5 14 27.5


Source:
http://www.rdasilva.demon.co.uk/
football.html


Talk about Country Standings Look at where S&M Stand in world rankings! Yugoslavia doesn't count since its from prior to 91 and included all nationalities from the six republics!

Cvijus011 said...

Don't twist the story Kristian, your fellow Shqiptars calim that this was the worst defeat in the World Cup and I proved them wrong, so better admit that you're not right rather than trying to twist the story. Face it also that the two worst defeats in the history of soccer was the defeat of American Samoa against Australia 31-0 and then comes the defeat of Albania against Hungary 12-0. How does it feel to be the second worst who never was able to qualify to anything?

Cvijus011 said...

Kristian,

Serbia is on the 46th place in the FIFA ranking and guess where is Albania? 86th, that is waaayyyyyyy down there

http://www.fifa.com/en/mens/statistics/index/0,2548,All-Apr-2006,00.html

Kristian said...

Another stat:


World Cup Qualifying Statistics
World Cup 1930-2010



12 Yugoslavia 88 52 21 15 193 84 +109 177 67.0


83 Croatia 28 17 10 1 56 20 +36 61 72.6


107 Slovenia 30 9 10 11 35 44 -9 37 41.1



110 Albania 74 10 7 57 47 151 -104 37 16.7


114 Bosnia and Herzegovina 26 9 6 11 33 35 -2 33 42.3



125 Macedonia 32 7 8 17 44 60 -16 29 30.2


LASTLY

134 Serbia and Montenegro 10 6 4 0 16 1 +15 22 73.3

Kristian said...

To: Cv....


I'm glad that you even betray your own country by being so modest and ranking them lower then FIFA does! Tell the truth at least!


S&M is 44th place this year 2006
Albania is in 85th place in 2006

And my country, the greatest in the world and most powerful!

USA is in 5th place 2006 :)


But over all statistics still put S&M at a lower ranking as I have already pointed out above!

Cvijus011 said...

Kristian,

Do you have any syndrome like the other Albanians in this blog?

"And my country, the greatest in the world and most powerful!"

I never said that Serbia are the most powerful country in soccer. To be honest I don't find our soccer great, but hey at least we have some good results behind us, despite the recent fiasco. What does Albania have? Huh? There you all are rejoicing that we lost against Argentina, but you don't even think for a second that rats play better soccer than the Albanian National Team.

"I'm glad that you even betray your own country by being so modest and ranking them lower then FIFA does"

Did you check the link I posted or do you need glasses cause I think Konaction needs desperately customers for which he will be very glad to give you a treatment.

Cvijus011 said...

Emmm kristian,

"LASTLY

134 Serbia and Montenegro 10 6 4 0 16 1 +15 22 73.3"

S-M existed only for three years.

Kristian said...

To: cv...



Don't twist the story Kristian, your fellow Shqiptars calim that this was the worst defeat in the World Cup and I proved them wrong, so better admit that you're not right rather than trying to twist the story. Face it also that the two worst defeats in the history of soccer was the defeat of American Samoa against Australia 31-0 and then comes the defeat of Albania against Hungary 12-0. How does it feel to be the second worst who never was able to qualify to anything?


I'm sorry but I was the original person that posted the comment stating that that was the worst defeat in World Cup History, so in that I was wrong and I forgot to add BY A EUROPEAN NATION. So in that regard you disproved everyone on S&M not being the biggest losers in World Cup history, BUT you're the biggest losers from EUROPE!

Again we were talking about the WORLD CUP!

And everyone has admitted that we haven't qualified for the world cup! So no one will argue or has argued that point with you or anyone else on this blog!


As far as losing to Hungary, as NY.. has said they couldn't play bc they were holding those tin cups while still playing. Its hard to ask for donations from the crowd and still play a game! They didn't even have jerseys and the white caps were distorting their balance with the ball. And being isolated for almost 50 yrs they were awed by the new shoes the Hungarians were wearing while they had those damn (Aponga's)(mispelled) those rubber shoes sold throughout FROY with holes in them. Damn those Chinese!


And about the white caps, why were those folks in your national pictures wearing them too?????

Kristian said...

Cv...


I was on the official FIFA site when I pasted those rankings. And no I don't need glasses.


http://fifa.com/en/mens/statistics/
index/0,2548,All-May-2006,00.html#

That is there site and you can check if you want to see the world rankings!


And as far as "my country comment" did I say something that was untrue???


There you all are rejoicing that we lost against Argentina, but you don't even think for a second that rats play better soccer than the Albanian National Team.


Who said I was rejoicing????? All the bets I made came true except for several games which were Brasil against france, germany against italy, france against portugal. So now we have Italy against France and I originally had Germany against portugal. I'm betting on the Italians winning! Lets see what happens.


Oh that last paragraph was so funny I almost pee'd in my shorts. I still can't stop laughing about the RATS. That was truely poetic! LOL

We should all get together in a Live forum or chat room and all the blogers here and new have a long conversation. That would be cool.


Your comment about S&M playing for only 3 years, that is not my fault that the FROY split up.

STATISTICS DON"T LIE! And overall stats put S&M at the rankings i posted earlier.

And if we compare Yugo with albania you'll notice the number of games that Yugo played compared to Albania's 71 in friendlies and 74 in world cup qualifying. Yugo's 344 friendlies and 88 world cup qualifying. Look at the gap in experience alone. The more games played the more practice the better you get. Yugo has played 5 times more in friendlies alone. Can't compare apple and oranges.

Nor can you compare years as a country forming. So now Serbia will be Last as with Montenegro. So again can't compare apples and oranges. But statistically overall games your placement is on the lower spectrum.

So even if you compare S&M with Albania your comparing to different classes of teams. S&M in B class rating to Albania being in a C-/D class rating. I would of considered S&M in A class rating but its not where it was prior to the break up of FROY. The Croatians have a leg up In the A-/B+ class.

Again we're comparing apples and oranges.


Peace to all!

Cvijus011 said...

kristian,

"those rubber shoes sold throughout FROY with holes in them. Damn those Chinese!"

Nobody forced you to buy from Serbia those shoes. Look at Brazil, they paly bare feet and still are the best (more or less), whereas you're whinning for the shoes. Somehow about anything you ALbanians are crybabies.

"I'm betting on the Italians winning! Lets see what happens."

Me too

"Again we're comparing apples and oranges."

You're the one comparing them. I told you, S-M existed for three years, I don't know what is the intentions of these numbers you posted, all I know we were qualifying for Cups and you didn't, neither did Bosnia nor Macedonia.

Now I'm eager to see our team (current world champs) in water polo kick asses. Btw, Albania has a seaside and stincks in water polo, why is that? Serbs fault again?

arianit said...

Cvijus,

I see it has become special olympics around here. Again, with the help of your masters in history, are you suggesting that ethymology of the toponym Tirana proves anything aboud Albanians? Before we move on, what are we are arguing about? It helps out to know.

Talking about Albanian soccer

NYoutlawyer said...

albaniac soccer, what a fucking freak show. And that music gives me the creeps. It sounds arab.

Cvijus011 said...

Hey, this flag lowering at the stadium reminds me of similar footages from Nazi Germany, it seems that you being their allies has left many traces.

What does Albanian soccer have to do with terrorists (KLA)?

I hope Olli Kahn kicked the ass of the other Shqiptar.

And the music at this clip...I guess the producer was bin Laden personally.

Kristian said...

To: cv...


Nobody forced you to buy from Serbia those shoes. Look at Brazil, they paly bare feet and still are the best (more or less), whereas you're whinning for the shoes. Somehow about anything you ALbanians are crybabies.


How did shoes from the FROY become all of a sudden "SERBIAN SHOES"???????


I was being sarcastic in that last paragraph but I guess you took it literally!

And you keep making references of "YOU". I really don't care much bc my favorite team is brasil.

And one sport serbians were never that good at was boxing. I don't know how many times Kosovo/a albanians represented FROY in boxing!



Take a breather there, don't take things to literally!


Peace to all!

ANYC said...

"anyc I dont see why you should feel joy when you believe your predjudices about Cvijus are confirmed. I feel joy in what we have in common not in defining what is my supposed enemy."

BGannon
I feel anything but joy. Cvijus needs to be revealed for what he is, a punk, that when his argument fails he resorts to NYlawyers tactics-we all know what those are.

I like putting him in his place, afterall he claims to be educated, I just wanted to show him that he needs more schooling. No joy there whatsoever.

Cvijus011 said...

"Cvijus needs to be revealed for what he is, a punk"

That is very tolerant from your side ANYC, very civilized, well done.

"that when his argument fails he resorts to NYlawyers tactics-we all know what those are."

I quited posting any arguments as soon as I realized that whatever I write, as valid as it is, it will end up with insults from the ALbanian side. therfore, I'm here just for fun.

"I like putting him in his place, afterall he claims to be educated"

You're not the one eligible to judge my education, others are. I realized that you Albanians are bölinded by your mythology and I realized that showing you any degree of education is senseless. Therefore, as I already said, I'm here just for the fun of pissing you of. As for putting me on my place, what happened? You put me on my place and then you woke up and thought what a nice dream it was?

Kristina,

"I was being sarcastic in that last paragraph but I guess you took it literally!"

Sorry mate. Honest mistake, no hard feelings.

Cvijus011 said...

kristian,

I'm sorry, I mistankelly wrote in my last psot Kristina, just to know that it wasn't on purpose, I jst hastely mistyped.

ANYC said...

"You're not the one eligible to judge my education"

Oh but we are. Especially since every chance you have you claim that your "german proffessors say this" or "your college did that". I bet you I have way more education (in terms of degrees and years of study -in the western accredited universities) but you don't see me ever mention these in the blog.

And finally if you are here for fun, than your life must really be miserable. I can name 1000 other things you could do for fun-and this is not one of them...But I doubt you are here for fun as you really try hard to argue every point agaist the albanians.

Cvijus011 said...

ANYC,

Have you noticed that you're sticking to my degree issue as a flee to a shit? Every time I write something, you come then all the time bullshiting me about how you don't believe that I have a degree. i guess you have some problems/complexes about it, not I. Anyways, I mentioned my degree only once in order shut some other albos up and ever since you have been anoying me about that.

""german proffessors say this"

I was just giving you real life examples, and this is the way you thank me?

"in the western accredited universities"

You mean the universities of Durres or Saranda?

"than your life must really be miserable"

Actually I'm satisfied with my life, I got everything I need. Actually, I come here for fun, not because I'm bored, but because I love to see it how you all Shitptars put out all your frustration and complexes. Without Serbs, you will practically die.
Why are you here ANYC?